WAKA Question re: Paper Forfeits

[Justin Andrew Anderson]

Experienced WAKA players and/or CSRs... Dice. has played five games this season with the results below. And per the standings, our CSR has our record listed as 4 wins, 1 loss, 0 ties and 1 paper forfeit for 3.25 points. Is this correct or should our record be 4 wins, 1 loss, 0 ties and 0 paper forfeits for 4.0 points? I thought forfeits and paper forfeits were different and paper forfeits were only given for failing to supply referees which we have never done. Please advise.

Game 1: Won 29-0
Game 2: Won 9-1
Game 3: Forfeited (0-5) for only having 3 women.
Game 4: Won 13-0
Game 5: Won 8-0

WAKA CO Mile High standings: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub ... utput=html

[Festa]

Points? Usually Win Percentage is calculated. Let me go dig in the waka rulebook for this forumla.

[Festa]

Here's the rule verbatim:

Win Percentage = [W + (T/2) – (F*.75)] / GP
• Wins are worth 1 point.
• Losses are worth 0 points.
• Ties are worth 0.5 points (1/2).
• Paper Forfeits SUBTRACT 0.75 points (do not add L in loss record).
• Game Forfeits SUBTRACT 0.75 points and count as a 5-0 Loss for the forfeiting team and a Win for their opponent.
• Mutual Game Forfeits SUBTRACT 0.75 points and count as a Loss with 5 runs allowed for both teams.
• For each Team, tally up their points as explained above and divide the total by the number of Games Played by that
Team, including games won or lost by Forfeit. The resulting number is that Team’s Win Percentage.
• The team with the highest Win Percentage should be ranked first, the team with the next highest Win Percentage
should be ranked second and so on until all teams in the League have been ranked. (See next section for
tiebreak procedures.)
Examples:
• 4 Wins, 2 Ties, 1 Loss, 1 Game Forfeit, 1 Paper Forfeit = 4 + (2 / 2) – (2 * 0.75) / 8 = .438 Win Percentage
• 7 Wins, 1 Tie, 0 Loses, 0 Game Forfeits, 1 Paper Forfeit = 7 + (1 / 2) – (1 * 0.75) / 8 = .844 Win Percentage

Paper forfeits are ones you get for not supplying refs. They count against your F total, not not your L total. Forfeits on the other hand, hurt you twice. In the F column and the L column. (And in the Runs Allowed column too)

[Justin]

I had never heard the term paper forfeit before but good job Festa for finding that info. My team this past season had to forfeit a game because out girl showed up at the 16 minute mark, 1 minute past the allotted grace period. I think our record was 7 wins, 0 loses, 2 ties, and 1 forfeit for 7.25 points. It hurt us in seeding because we ended up the 3 seed instead of the 1 seed. Just goes to show how important it is for getting your girls to the games and on time. We still went on to win the tourney so in the log run it dis not hurt us to much.

[Justin Andrew Anderson]

Thanks, Festa! I understand now that our 3.25 points is correct but that our Paper Forfeit total is incorrect. Our forfeit substracts 1.75 points from our maximum total where a loss would have only subtracted 1.0 point.

I'm still confused even after receiving this from our CSR moments ago via e-mail:

"You are correct actually, a Paper Forfeit is when you fail to provide ref's and a standard forfiet (failure to have proper t-shirts worn, not enough players, etc.) is a different forfeit. Paper forfiets do not count as a loss but will still deduct a team .75 points. A regular forfiet will count as a 5-0 loss to a team and that team will also be deducted .75 points.

You are the first person to catch this on the site and my apologies for not giving more explanations on the standings spreadsheet. I will make it more clear when I get some time tonight and hopefully that will clear up any confusion.

Moments ago, I also just got this reply from our CSR:

"You are correct actually, a Paper Forfeit is when you fail to provide ref's and a standard forfiet (failure to have proper t-shirts worn, not enough players, etc.) is a different forfeit. Paper forfiets do not count as a loss but will still deduct a team .75 points. A regular forfiet will count as a 5-0 loss to a team and that team will also be deducted .75 points.

You are the first person to catch this on the site and my apologies for not giving more explanations on the standings spreadsheet. I will make it more clear when I get some time tonight and hopefully that will clear up any confusion.

I've also sent your email to my boss to make sure I didn't miss anything. Let me know if you have any other questions."

[Justin Andrew Anderson]

And now standings have been updated and are correct! K366 Forums rock. Thanks!

[dp3]

a standard forfiet (failure to have proper t-shirts worn, not enough players, etc.) is a different forfeit.

If someone gave me a forfeit for not wearing the proper t-shirts, I'd likely be slashing some tires or some other inappropriate and /or immature reaction.

[JohnPWilks]

I had never heard the term paper forfeit before but good job Festa for finding that info. My team this past season had to forfeit a game because out girl showed up at the 16 minute mark, 1 minute past the allotted grace period. I think our record was 7 wins, 0 loses, 2 ties, and 1 forfeit for 7.25 points. It hurt us in seeding because we ended up the 3 seed instead of the 1 seed. Just goes to show how important it is for getting your girls to the games and on time. We still went on to win the tourney so in the log run it dis not hurt us to much.

Which if you read the actually rules, the your record should of been 7-1-2-1 (the forfeit should of counted as a loss). It doesn't matter as we all know who won the tournament anyway.

[Duff]

a standard forfiet (failure to have proper t-shirts worn, not enough players, etc.) is a different forfeit.

If someone gave me a forfeit for not wearing the proper t-shirts, I'd likely be slashing some tires or some other inappropriate and /or immature reaction.

We had a regional rep at the fields one day back when I used to play WAKA. Saw myself and some others in non-WAKA shirts, told us we couldn't play in the game until we changed. We had been playing in the league for ten seasons straight at that point. After I strongly argued she backed off and said to make sure it didn't happen again.

One of the many reasons I left WAKA and didn't go back.

[Festa]

I had the opposite happen to me.. back in 2008, my team was playing a season in DC Kickball. One week, a team went all hissy-fit over 1 person on my team wearing a WAKA shirt (WAKA and DCK were in a lawsuit at the time), so the next week we decided to have the whole team roll up in WAKA shirts. The ref went ape-shit, and threatened to make us forfeit if we didn't change... actually we had to forfeit because we didn't have enough DCK shirts to go around.

[krabbas]

I had never heard the term paper forfeit before but good job Festa for finding that info. My team this past season had to forfeit a game because out girl showed up at the 16 minute mark, 1 minute past the allotted grace period. I think our record was 7 wins, 0 loses, 2 ties, and 1 forfeit for 7.25 points. It hurt us in seeding because we ended up the 3 seed instead of the 1 seed. Just goes to show how important it is for getting your girls to the games and on time. We still went on to win the tourney so in the log run it dis not hurt us to much.

Which if you read the actually rules, the your record should of been 7-1-2-1 (the forfeit should of counted as a loss). It doesn't matter as we all know who won the tournament anyway.

The forfeit was recorded as a loss for the standings. The formula I used is WP = [W+(T/2) - (F*.75)] / Number of games played... The Forfeit column feeds into the number of games played on the standings. If I were to record the forfeit in the L column AND the F column, than it'd show the Clockers with 11 games played instead of 10.

[The Scorekeeper]

a few years ago there was a team that got eliminated from the end of season tournament because one player showed up in a shirt that was the right color but wasn't their waka jersey. the other team complained, and the forfeit flag was thrown.

[Justin]

Which if you read the actually rules, the your record should of been 7-1-2-1 (the forfeit should of counted as a loss). It doesn't matter as we all know who won the tournament anyway.

The forfeit was recorded as a loss for the standings. The formula I used is WP = [W+(T/2) - (F*.75)] / Number of games played... The Forfeit column feeds into the number of games played on the standings. If I were to record the forfeit in the L column AND the F column, than it'd show the Clockers with 11 games played instead of 10.

That would explain the difference. I guess the easy way around this would be to make the games played column a fixed field you have to manually adjust every week instead of a formula.

Thanks, Festa! I understand now that our 3.25 points is correct but that our Paper Forfeit total is incorrect. Our forfeit substracts 1.75 points from our maximum total where a loss would have only subtracted 1.0 point.

Just remeber you don't lose point for a loss, you just don't gain any points. Like they have said a few times in the this thread the simple formula is wins, plus .5 for each tie, minus .75 for each forfiet, divided by games played.

[Justin]

a few years ago there was a team that got eliminated from the end of season tournament because one player showed up in a shirt that was the right color but wasn't their waka jersey. the other team complained, and the forfeit flag was thrown.

We had 2 players that had to go get there WAKA shirts cause a team complained during the tournament we just had. This is why I buy the dri-fit shirt every season. Always nice to have that extra shirt just in case.

[JellyDogg]

a few years ago there was a team that got eliminated from the end of season tournament because one player showed up in a shirt that was the right color but wasn't their waka jersey. the other team complained, and the forfeit flag was thrown.

Quite possibly a new low to what some teams will go to in order to notch a win.

[krabbas]

a few years ago there was a team that got eliminated from the end of season tournament because one player showed up in a shirt that was the right color but wasn't their waka jersey. the other team complained, and the forfeit flag was thrown.

Quite possibly a new low to what some teams will go to in order to notch a win.

I never heard this story. What league was this in and who was it?

[dp3]

a few years ago there was a team that got eliminated from the end of season tournament because one player showed up in a shirt that was the right color but wasn't their waka jersey. the other team complained, and the forfeit flag was thrown.

Quite possibly a new low to what some teams will go to in order to notch a win.

I never heard this story. What league was this in and who was it?

Blackball them!

[Festa]

a few years ago there was a team that got eliminated from the end of season tournament because one player showed up in a shirt that was the right color but wasn't their waka jersey. the other team complained, and the forfeit flag was thrown.

Quite possibly a new low to what some teams will go to in order to notch a win.

It's not a WIN. It's a WIF. Wardrobe Induced Forfeit.

[2_easy]

This one time, in Band Camp, A founder stuck a flute up his....

[The Scorekeeper]

a few years ago there was a team that got eliminated from the end of season tournament because one player showed up in a shirt that was the right color but wasn't their waka jersey. the other team complained, and the forfeit flag was thrown.

Quite possibly a new low to what some teams will go to in order to notch a win.

I never heard this story. What league was this in and who was it?

iirc it was AO on southside, but it might have been before that. i know it was lance that didn't wear his jersey and he was playing on jared frogosa's team. fwiw, lance never wore his jersey all season. ever week he'd just show up in a shirt that was the right color but not an official jersey. the fact that they waited until the tournament to call him on it was sheer brilliance or a super huge dick move.

[JohnPWilks]

The forfeit was recorded as a loss for the standings. The formula I used is WP = [W+(T/2) - (F*.75)] / Number of games played... The Forfeit column feeds into the number of games played on the standings. If I were to record the forfeit in the L column AND the F column, than it'd show the Clockers with 11 games played instead of 10.

What would you have done had the Clockers not provided refs for any games they were responsible for? It would of given you the same 11 game scenario.

That would explain the difference. I guess the easy way around this would be to make the games played column a fixed field you have to manually adjust every week instead of a formula.

The way I did it in Southside/Shore/Recess I only added the Win Loss and Tie Columns to the games played column.

Also -

Per the League Tournament Guidelines:
"• Wins are worth 1 point.
• Losses are worth 0 points.
• Ties are worth 0.5 points (1/2).
• Paper Forfeits SUBTRACT 0.75 points (do not add L in loss record).
• Game Forfeits SUBTRACT 0.75 points and count as a 5-0 Loss for the forfeiting team and a Win for their opponent."

Also Per the Waka Rules Guru Orion:
"Insufficient players trigger a GAME forfeit, which is a 5-0 loss in addition to an F, and a 5-0 win for the opposing team. Paper Forfeits are administrative penalties that give an F to the offending team only."

In the big picture of it all, it doesn't really matter as a forfeit still takes the 0.75 points away whether a loss is in place or not.

[krabbas]

The forfeit was recorded as a loss for the standings. The formula I used is WP = [W+(T/2) - (F*.75)] / Number of games played... The Forfeit column feeds into the number of games played on the standings. If I were to record the forfeit in the L column AND the F column, than it'd show the Clockers with 11 games played instead of 10.

What would you have done had the Clockers not provided refs for any games they were responsible for? It would of given you the same 11 game scenario.

That would explain the difference. I guess the easy way around this would be to make the games played column a fixed field you have to manually adjust every week instead of a formula.

The way I did it in Southside/Shore/Recess I only added the Win Loss and Tie Columns to the games played column.

Also -

Per the League Tournament Guidelines:
"• Wins are worth 1 point.
• Losses are worth 0 points.
• Ties are worth 0.5 points (1/2).
• Paper Forfeits SUBTRACT 0.75 points (do not add L in loss record).
• Game Forfeits SUBTRACT 0.75 points and count as a 5-0 Loss for the forfeiting team and a Win for their opponent."

Also Per the Waka Rules Guru Orion:
"Insufficient players trigger a GAME forfeit, which is a 5-0 loss in addition to an F, and a 5-0 win for the opposing team. Paper Forfeits are administrative penalties that give an F to the offending team only."

I probably would've just manually subtracted the .75 from their total.

It's either way. In both your method and mine, the result ends up being the same. It's just how it looks in the standings.

[Festa]

I build the formula into kickballlegends for my standings... except I didn't realize (when I wrote it) that paper forfeits went towards the forfeit count. I had thought it only went towards the "forfeit thrice and you're out of the playoffs".

That's something I have to fix (and implement a way to insert a paper forfeit)

[krabbas]

a few years ago there was a team that got eliminated from the end of season tournament because one player showed up in a shirt that was the right color but wasn't their waka jersey. the other team complained, and the forfeit flag was thrown.

Quite possibly a new low to what some teams will go to in order to notch a win.

I never heard this story. What league was this in and who was it?

iirc it was AO on southside, but it might have been before that. i know it was lance that didn't wear his jersey and he was playing on jared frogosa's team. fwiw, lance never wore his jersey all season. ever week he'd just show up in a shirt that was the right color but not an official jersey. the fact that they waited until the tournament to call him on it was sheer brilliance or a super huge dick move.

Must've been before. I don't think Lance ever played with AO. I played with AO for almost every season of the team's existence.

Who called them on it?

[kim dude]

a few years ago there was a team that got eliminated from the end of season tournament because one player showed up in a shirt that was the right color but wasn't their waka jersey. the other team complained, and the forfeit flag was thrown.

Quite possibly a new low to what some teams will go to in order to notch a win.

I never heard this story. What league was this in and who was it?

iirc it was AO on southside, but it might have been before that. i know it was lance that didn't wear his jersey and he was playing on jared frogosa's team. fwiw, lance never wore his jersey all season. ever week he'd just show up in a shirt that was the right color but not an official jersey. the fact that they waited until the tournament to call him on it was sheer brilliance or a super huge dick move.

Lance was never on AO, so it must have been before that

[dp3]

the fact that they waited until the tournament to call him on it was sheer brilliance or a super huge dick move.

IMO there's no brilliance to this whatsoever. It's a super huge dick move in every possible way. I'd fear a parking-lot stabbing if I attempted this in California. #ItsJustKickball

[The Scorekeeper]

i don't remember who called them on it now, it was years ago. i just know after that we always stressed to people BRING YOUR JERSEY TO THE TOURNAMENT SO YOU DON'T FORFEIT!

there was also one year, back on beach division, that jc showed up to the tournament without his ID and they wouldn't let him play. that would have been, like, 2006 or 2007, though. feels like a lifetime ago.