Substitution Rule

[Trey it Up]

So you're saying that since Admin is on OSC that Bill makes every decision according to what's best for the Circuit instead of what's best for OSC?

Let me write in short sentences for you. You just ranted about how OSC is anti-Circuit. Admin plays for OSC. Admin founded the Circuit. Admin wouldn't play for a team that is anti his own business.

So you think Admin is in favor of two teams combining to make one bigger/better team? You think he is in favor of $500 in admission fees instead of $1,000? You think over the course of five tournaments, he's in favor of $2,500 less in the Circuit bank account? You think that applying OSC's decision to cannibalize iB to all Circuit teams is a model for long term Circuit success?

There were approximately 100 Circuit teams last year. You think a long term goal should be for each team to combine with one or more teams to create larger and better teams. You think it's in the Circuit's best interest to have 50 or fewer teams instead of 100 teams? Is all of this correct?

The Circuit won't last if the same two teams win every tournament. Now they won't. More teams that can win is better for the Circuit.

I believe four different teams won an event last year. This year it'll likely be 5-7 different teams.

[Typod]

Tey's NFL vs MLB example makes a lot of sense. NFL is more competitive because of parity brought about by salary and roster restrictions.

The guy:girl ration thing is really the only thing keeping the circuit from being a true competition of the best coed team winning. I'd love to see something done in the direction of this.

[Trey it Up]

Tey's NFL vs MLB example makes a lot of sense.

Notice this question was ignored.

[JellyDogg]

Certainly something to talk about. There's a fine line here too between leveling the playing field and trying to keep talented teams from being able to utilize their talent. If some team has a top-notch specialist on the bench and another team has an average guy on the bench, there's just a talent discrepancy there. That's going to happen sometimes.

Talent discrepancies are fine. I'm not in favor of trying to divide talent equally. I just think the sizes and ratios should be even, and let the talent determine who the better team is.

[wilson]

good points in here. what guy/girl ratio are people thinking of? no more than 3 guys in a row? and if you have 20 guys and 4 girls, if there is a 2:1 ratio or 3:1 ratio, are we allowed to have a girl bat twice in the lineup? we did that in softball.

[wilson]

Talent discrepancies are fine. I'm not in favor of trying to divide talent equally. I just think the sizes and ratios should be even, and let the talent determine who the better team is.

i think this is like college football. in the '70s and before, college football teams had no scholarship restrictions. teams like michigan and ohio state would have 120 people on the team while teams like indiana and minnesota would have a lot less. michigan/OSU could just stock a lot of good players on their team, and other teams in the big ten/midwest couldn't have them.

with the 85 scholarship requirement, teams like boise state would have access to more talent since the big teams couldn't have everyone anymore.

i think that's a good thing.

[Typod]

Just spitballing, I'd say you have your 10 players, 6:4. Beyond that every 2 males requires 1 female in the lineup. Something that allows you to kick 14 guys if you choose, but you'd have to go 14:8.

Kicking 10 or 11 guys (seems to be the norm) would mean kicking 6 girls. If you only brought 5 to the tourney, kick the girls more often, like in softball.

[Kickbot]

I would be willing to work hard to prevent a rule like this being implemented. The fact of the matter is that it's often much more difficult to keep women involved in a travel team than it is men. This rule would add a layer of complexity to fielding a team that is absolutely not justified by any utility it might have.

[Typod]

it's often much more difficult to keep women involved in a travel team than it is men.

I agree with this.

I also think the rules allowing teams to marginalize their women while billing themselves as co-ed is the biggest contributor to this problem.

[Typod]

Atheltic and competitive women who want to travel with a coed team and party with like minded people are not hard to find.

Finding women who want to play in a system where 12 guys in a row can kick followed by 4 women, then 12 guys again isn't so easy.

[Kickbot]

I also think the rules allowing teams to marginalize their women while billing themselves as co-ed is the biggest contributor to this problem.

I disagree. I think that women tend to prioritize differently than men and the cost/benefit analysis of travel kickball starts failing earlier. Changing the rules is not going to affect this.

[wilson]

no one said you have to get 6 girls to play, wasn't the idea to have the same girl bat again, like in softball? you had to get 4 girls regardless.

[Typod]

You could be correct. Like I said, I am spitballing ideas. Ive never liked the faux coed nature of kickball at all, maybe that's just my bias.

That said Dodgeball (at least in California) kills kickball in the traveling coed tournament participation. There are a ton of teams who travel nationally and internationally doing exactly what the circuit does, and the main difference is the 3:1 ratio, parity, all female divisions etc.

I've spoken to many super die hard competitive athletic women in dodgeball and most of them dislike kickball for thee reasons I gave.

[Typod]

no one said you have to get 6 girls to play, wasn't the idea to have the same girl bat again, like in softball? you had to get 4 girls regardless.

Wilson got to my next point before me.

The # of women on the team doesnt need to change. Just their participation.

[Kickbot]

I'd like to hear from some female players who'd be in favor of a rule like this.

Right now women win there positions in the kicking order and on defense same as everyone else. They are held to the same standards as men.

[wilson]

I'd like to hear from some female players who'd be in favor of a rule like this.

Right now women win there positions in the kicking order and on defense same as everyone else. They are held to the same standards as men.

on most competitive teams, women are placed at the bottom of the lineup. i don't see how that's the same standard. in this situation, it would be more equitable.

i think it just goes back to jellydogg's point, i can't think of a sport where you're allowed to have more people than another team in your lineup. a team batting 20 guys and 4 girls will have an advantage over a team with 10 guys and 4 girls. while this doesn't make lineup lengths standard yet, this would help equal the field in my opinion. having better girls and better guys will still make you a better team, it's not neutering the good teams.

[Typod]

I'd like to hear from some female players who'd be in favor of a rule like this.

Right now women win there positions in the kicking order and on defense same as everyone else. They are held to the same standards as men.

Im not implying you dont act fairly and equally with them. I can't get women who have told me they tried kickball and disliked the way they were utilized and lineups and defense was uneven to come on the boards and explain. But Im not lying when I tell you women have told me this. And these are females who travel to play their rec sports on a regular basis.

[JellyDogg]

If most of us played the roles that girls play in kickball, the cost/benefit analysis for us would fail early, too.

[Kickbot]

on most competitive teams, women are placed at the bottom of the lineup. i don't see how that's the same standard. in this situation, it would be more equitable.

Because they are women or because that's what makes the most sense based on the skills an abilities of the people in the kicking order regardless of what sex they are?

[MEATBALLKEVIN]

women are not always placed at the bottom of line ups. If a female has a stronger leg and can run faster than any of my men she will bat before them..Its not the case cause we were not made this way. Men are stronger and faster. The ladies are still facing a man playing 3rd ,catcher and pitcher..whats next do you want girls to pitch to girls??

Batting something like no more than 3 guys in a row would never work because teams would just let guys on to get to the girls. This is a "co ed" sport but should not be treated as so with how you make a llineup or positions. You most have at least 4 of each sex on the field in and line up. Do whatever the hell you want with it. What more can you ask for?

[wilson]

If most of us played the roles that girls play in kickball, the cost/benefit analysis for us would fail early, too.

"ok, since you're last in the lineup and we already have two outs, go get out on purpose."

[MEATBALLKEVIN]

on most competitive teams, women are placed at the bottom of the lineup. i don't see how that's the same standard. in this situation, it would be more equitable.

Because they are women or because that's what makes the most sense based on the skills an abilities of the people in the kicking order regardless of what sex they are?

ask the top 10 girls in the game their opinion and i bet you anything at least 8,if not all 10 do not want to be treated any different in line up making do to sex. Its all on talent

[Typod]

Asking the top girls "in the game" is exactly why your answer would be skewed.

The women who would answer this differently are not "in the game", they'r eplaying dodgeball, soccer softball etc

[Catch-22]

I couldn't agree more with Oakley and Kevin.

At SFKO '10, we had Caitlyn kicking 7 or so in a lineup with 13 guys in it because she was killing it. She was an athletic, former college soccer player. She kicked two stand-up triples and multiple doubles. She kicked where she did because she was better than 6 guys on our team at offense that day.

[JellyDogg]

If it were all about talent, there would be no gender requirement.

[Typod]

Kicking order has nothing to do with this concept

[Catch-22]

Asking the top girls "in the game" is exactly why your answer would be skewed.

The women who would answer this differently are not "in the game", they'r eplaying dodgeball, soccer softball etc

We would have to change the sport completely. A big part of people's enjoyment is defense. Amy on NYSH is the only girl on any top team to play any key infield position (CH, C, P, 1B). Her talent gets her on the field.

[Catch-22]

If it were all about talent, there would be no gender requirement.

No one said it's all about talent. What they said was given that both genders play, the best people from either gender play the most.

[wilson]

Asking the top girls "in the game" is exactly why your answer would be skewed.

The women who would answer this differently are not "in the game", they'r eplaying dodgeball, soccer softball etc

We would have to change the sport completely. A big part of people's enjoyment is defense. Amy on NYSH is the only girl on any top team to play any key infield position (CH, C, P, 1B). Her talent gets her on the field.

i don't understand what this has to do with anything. we're talking about batting orders and doing guy/girl ratios. defense isn't being touched.

[Kickbot]

i don't understand what this has to do with anything. we're talking about batting orders and doing guy/girl ratios. defense isn't being touched.

Yeah, but part of what makes competitive kickball special is that nobody gets any gender specific special treatment. Doing something like ratios changes that.

[JellyDogg]

Asking the top girls "in the game" is exactly why your answer would be skewed.

The women who would answer this differently are not "in the game", they'r eplaying dodgeball, soccer softball etc

We would have to change the sport completely. A big part of people's enjoyment is defense. Amy on NYSH is the only girl on any top team to play any key infield position (CH, C, P, 1B). Her talent gets her on the field.

Some would say at least 50% of their enjoyment is on defense. The rest on offense. You already did a good enough job explaining why many girls don't enjoy defense. Now throw on that the fact they kick at the bottom of the lineup (with very few exceptions), and you have a recipe for dissatisfaction for a whole lot of girls. Competitive people, whether guys or girls, all want to contribute in a meaningful way. Girls in kickball are for the most part utilized like they just need to stay out of the way and try not to do anything stupid.

[Catch-22]

Asking the top girls "in the game" is exactly why your answer would be skewed.

The women who would answer this differently are not "in the game", they'r eplaying dodgeball, soccer softball etc

We would have to change the sport completely. A big part of people's enjoyment is defense. Amy on NYSH is the only girl on any top team to play any key infield position (CH, C, P, 1B). Her talent gets her on the field.

i don't understand what this has to do with anything. we're talking about batting orders and doing guy/girl ratios. defense isn't being touched.

Tyler is implying that top women athletes are playing different sports than kickball. I don't think changing the kicking lineup rules will suddenly attract top female athletes anymore than the current game does. The only thing that would really attract top female athletes is the opportunity for them to play key defensive positions. Doing that would change the sport completely.

[JellyDogg]

i don't understand what this has to do with anything. we're talking about batting orders and doing guy/girl ratios. defense isn't being touched.

Yeah, but part of what makes competitive kickball special is that nobody gets any gender specific special treatment. Doing something like ratios changes that.

Ratios wouldn't change that at all. You could still kick all your girls at the bottom of the lineup, but if you play a lot of guys, you'll just have more girls to put at the bottom.

[Catch-22]

Asking the top girls "in the game" is exactly why your answer would be skewed.

The women who would answer this differently are not "in the game", they'r eplaying dodgeball, soccer softball etc

We would have to change the sport completely. A big part of people's enjoyment is defense. Amy on NYSH is the only girl on any top team to play any key infield position (CH, C, P, 1B). Her talent gets her on the field.

Some would say at least 50% of their enjoyment is on defense. The rest on offense. You already did a good enough job explaining why many girls don't enjoy defense. Now throw on that the fact they kick at the bottom of the lineup (with very few exceptions), and you have a recipe for dissatisfaction for a whole lot of girls. Competitive people, whether guys or girls, all want to contribute in a meaningful way. Girls in kickball are for the most part utilized like they just need to stay out of the way and try not to do anything stupid.

That's a failure on the part of the men on those teams not appreciating their females, not of the sport.

[Catch-22]

i don't understand what this has to do with anything. we're talking about batting orders and doing guy/girl ratios. defense isn't being touched.

Yeah, but part of what makes competitive kickball special is that nobody gets any gender specific special treatment. Doing something like ratios changes that.

Ratios wouldn't change that at all. You could still kick all your girls at the bottom of the lineup, but if you play a lot of guys, you'll just have more girls to put at the bottom.

It's getting unclear what your goal is here. Do you want a more level playing field or do you want better gender equality in kickball? Or are you trying to do both?

[MEATBALLKEVIN]

i don't understand what this has to do with anything. we're talking about batting orders and doing guy/girl ratios. defense isn't being touched.

Yeah, but part of what makes competitive kickball special is that nobody gets any gender specific special treatment. Doing something like ratios changes that.

Ratios wouldn't change that at all. You could still kick all your girls at the bottom of the lineup, but if you play a lot of guys, you'll just have more girls to put at the bottom.

our 4th girl in the kick order probaly has MAYBE 4 less at bats A DAY in a tournament. they all bat twice per game when we get in to the 6th inning games. So the " at bat " time is pretty much just as equal as the lead offs.

[MEATBALLKEVIN]

if its a ratio thing and not a batting order thing then i think a good ratio is 3 to 1. no more than 12 men in order when playing 4 girls

[Trey it Up]

Panik has 8 very good girls who are way more committed than the vast majority of our guys. The way the rules are set up now, it doesn't present an advantage for PA to play all 8 girls at once. Therefore, half of our girls sit out each game. If a rule were put in place that mandated a ratio of guys to girls in the kicking order, PA would have an incentive to play more girls per game. The more the girls play, the more interested they are in traveling.

I think if you were to propose a ratio of guys:girls in the kicking order, most girls would vote for it. The teams that are against it are either the teams that have built their teams heavy on guys and light on girls (16 guys, 5 girls), or teams that try to minimize the girls' effect on the game by limiting their offensive/defensive contributions.

[JellyDogg]

our 4th girl in the kick order probaly has MAYBE 4 less at bats A DAY in a tournament. they all bat twice per game when we get in to the 6th inning games. So the " at bat " time is pretty much just as equal as the lead offs.

That's not the point at all. The point is that girls are the weakest players. Not being sexist, it's biology. The average guy is stronger and faster than the average girl. The deep teams (aka deep in male talent) can minimize the impact of these players by stacking a lineup full of faster, stronger guys, making the girls less and less a relevant part of the game.

A ratio requirement just maintains the same relationship between male/female participants. Example is if we had a 2-to-1 ratio of guys to girls, teams could play 8m 4f, 10m 5f, 12m 6f, etc. This will at least ensure that girls will be an equal factor for all teams, so teams cannot just "get better" by lessening the impact girls have on their team's success/failure.

[wilson]

Girls in kickball are for the most part utilized like they just need to stay out of the way and try not to do anything stupid.

i think this is mostly true. with exceptions (we also have male exceptions that get put at the bottom of the order), most girls are put at the bottom and then in the field (with exceptions), most are told to field the ball and quickly give it to a guy who will throw it somewhere.

back to the original point, i just think that a team with 20 guys/4 girls playing against a team with 10 guys/4 girls doesn't really make sense. with a ratio, your roster and lineup can be as big as you want them to be, it just makes the overall teams more fair.

i don't care that much about gender equality and all that, just trying to make the games more equitable.