Clarification from Fully Loaded

[krabbas]

I see both sides of the argument.

If you do seeding completely random, every tournament is going to have a pool that is lopsided. It may not happen often, but I guarantee you will have a tournament here and there that has 3 of the top teams in it. Conversely you're going to have pools with 3 lesser teams. It will ultimately cause problems at every tournament.

I think that because this tournament had 2 pools, instead of 3-4, it rubbed some people the wrong way because they had to play top teams. However, I think the seeding was done pretty fair. Yes, PA had a fairly easy road to single elimination, but A) they have earned it B) the pools were set up to where they didn’t have to play teams in their league (Situation & ViDF) and C) they weren’t going to play Fully Loaded as they were the #2 seed. Not a lot of options when the pull is set up that way. Not to mention, no one really knew what to expect from a lot of these teams, except PA/FL. A lot of teams were new teams (or new rosters) or teams new to the circuit like Flying V, BiB, ViDF, etc.

Do I want to play Meatballs/Panik Attack/Fully Loaded/Situation/TI^/USC/NYSH every tournament in pool play? No, but you deal with the pool you are put in. Bottom line is if you earn some respect and perform well at tournaments, you’re going to eventually get some easier pools.

Exactly. Again my team did not just form over night . Meatballs started in 2006.

By trying to make seedings fair and fun for everyone is not what the circuit is about. The circuit is built for competetive kickball. You earn your seedings. Next march should the NCAA have the #1 seeds play each other on each side?of course not because that would be stupid.


To me Circuit kickball is the best of the best going at it in tournaments. You earn your spot and your rankings. If this is going to draw teams away from it then so be it. I know there is a company out there built for "fun kickball".

Last time I check we're all recreational kickball players, i.e. no one gets paid to play kickball for a living. In fact it's the opposite. We actually pay a lot of money to travel and play in these tourneys. I HOPE the organizers are concerned with making it fair and fun. Because if that isn't "what the circuit is about" than it's a business model doomed for failure.

With that said, I think this is a good discussion about the seeding. I don't think the way VBKO did the seeding was way off. But at the same time, there probably could be some tweaks made just to add a little more balance. I think a lot of good ideas are being thrown out here.

[Pobbie4]

I agree with MBK and ZT. You have earned the right to not potentially play each other in the finals of any given tournament. The Circuit has become a lot of those "middle of the pack" teams. That competitive balance is a good thing for The Circuit! Anyone can advance in any given tournament and anyone can go home early in that same tournament, examples: The Situation SFKO 11 and iB VBKO 11. I would love to be a position to say that iB deserves to be held in higher esteem, just as everyone else wants their teams to be in that position.

It is about being a competitor, finding the right mix of athletes and getting better. There are teams that will put distance between themselves and the rest of the pack yet a step or 2 behind MB and PA between now and Vegas, in my mind FL is the only team that can claim this based off Circuit Events.

Aaron- Dont kill me for disagreeing with you next time I see you!

[sedlak5]

I do the see reasoning behind both arguments, but I think I agree with doing it a little more random. We for some reason have ended up with a pool of death a few times (we had the situation, nysh, and chicken to ghana in south florida), and let me tell you it definitely makes it tougher even if you come out of pool play. In fact, when you look at that pool, it would be almost the same thing as the meatballs having to play liu, panik and fully loaded all in pool play....you would be pretty much dead by the time elimination hits....which is what we were. You have to play players you want to rest and it just takes a lot of out you. Ironically, teams like the meatballs and panik, who are consistently #1 and #2 pre-ranked in the tournies, could probably handle a pool of death much better than the other teams b/c of their depth.

Also, I do not think FL is the 3rd best team. I understand that they are one of the tops teams that has played in two circuit tournies this year, but i dont see how you just ignore the other games that are played in between the tournies. Yes, if panik or meatballs lose a regular season game, it is not going to drop them. But b/w the teams 3-10, the games in between the tournies certainly mean something. I dont know when we last lost to FL (we have won at least the last two times) and FL got mercy ruled by meatballs in beach playoffs. I'm not trying to pick on FL and im not saying Balls Deep should be #3, im just saying that based on the past 6 months of kickball, i would not put FL at the 3 spot. BUT i will say this..out of the last 4 tournies we have played in, we were elminated by meatballs in 3 of them (the other was to OSC in DC tourney).

Beachslappers beat FL too Hi CTiger!!

[-APBT-]

I think we are all over the place here. Just so you all get my point..im saying that the top 2 teams should not play each other in round 1 of elimination. Im saying that the records we all have after pool play give us a spot in re seeding and thats how the elimination rounds work. I can really care less who we play in the morning.


Out of all do respect its hard to take the opinion of a team that just went 0-2-2 in pool play without playing the #1 or #2 seed in the morning.

It also works better when you have more pools, that way the pool has a #1, #4, #7 and #13. Not #1 and #2 like Skittles drew. With all do respect of your opinion, we lost by a total of 2 runs in two games, tied two teams in the final four, hardly a bad day. Not great by any means I will give you that, but even as MGK said, a bounce here and there and we go 4-0. Hardly anything to look down on for any team.

[machinegunkelly]

another way is the get rid of pool entirly......if have 20 team makes 4 groups w 5 teams in it....

example

group 1
meatballs
PA
FL
OSC
NYSH

u play 2 teams in this group....and 1 from groups 2,3....group 1 does not play group 4 at all....

[-APBT-]

I agree with MBK and ZT. You have earned the right to not potentially play each other in the finals of any given tournament. The Circuit has become a lot of those "middle of the pack" teams. That competitive balance is a good thing for The Circuit! Anyone can advance in any given tournament and anyone can go home early in that same tournament, examples: The Situation SFKO 11 and iB VBKO 11. I would love to be a position to say that iB deserves to be held in higher esteem, just as everyone else wants their teams to be in that position.

It is about being a competitor, finding the right mix of athletes and getting better. There are teams that will put distance between themselves and the rest of the pack yet a step or 2 behind MB and PA between now and Vegas, in my mind FL is the only team that can claim this based off Circuit Events.

Aaron- Dont kill me for disagreeing with you next time I see you!

I think everyone still thinks I am talking about iB and I'm not. Please when we play in K365, give me in this order....PA, MB, LIU, OSC and then FL and I will be a happy guy. I don't fell iB deserves anything but what we get...BUT new teams that we are trying to encourage to come to the Circuit will not see this the same way if they get CRUSHED by PA and FL in their first appearance.

[-APBT-]

Last time I check we're all recreational kickball players, i.e. no one gets paid to play kickball for a living. In fact it's the opposite. We actually pay a lot of money to travel and play in these tourneys. I HOPE the organizers are concerned with making it fair and fun. Because if that isn't "what the circuit is about" than it's a business model doomed for failure. .

This is exactly my point, it's not about my team, your team it's about this league and it success moving forward. Thank You krabbas! Nice work on the boards today boys, great passing the time, off to the crib....see you all tomorrow!

[pDuncOnYourFace]

In our current system there is an advantage to being a top seed.

1. You're a lot more rested for elims. You get to rest your pitchers chargers and catchers since you're playing a majority of teams that have no chance to beat you

2. You're more likely to have a top seed coming out of pool play which usually gives you an easier road to the finals. This is more relevant in a 16 team bracket. While they other teams are battling and gassing pitchers you're most likely still resting players.

I'll take the situation panik game in the final four as my example in this scenario. Situation played 5 tough games before they had to play panik. Panik played 2. I doubt any of the best situation players got any rest in those games and the result was a 11.0 win over situation. could panik really beat situation 11.0 on a equal playing field with a rested blake.

If we were in the nfl which to me is the best league to watch cause of how equal the teams are.. they'd be doing everything in their power to try to make it harder for panik and meatballs to win. Not easier.

It's obvious to me that panik and meatballs are the best teams. What they're both worried about is playing each other before the final. How about putting a clause in to say that both teams have to be in opposite sides of the bracket. Then they could play each other before elims and it wouldn't be an issue

[MEATBALLKEVIN]

I see both sides of the argument.

If you do seeding completely random, every tournament is going to have a pool that is lopsided. It may not happen often, but I guarantee you will have a tournament here and there that has 3 of the top teams in it. Conversely you're going to have pools with 3 lesser teams. It will ultimately cause problems at every tournament.

I think that because this tournament had 2 pools, instead of 3-4, it rubbed some people the wrong way because they had to play top teams. However, I think the seeding was done pretty fair. Yes, PA had a fairly easy road to single elimination, but A) they have earned it B) the pools were set up to where they didn’t have to play teams in their league (Situation & ViDF) and C) they weren’t going to play Fully Loaded as they were the #2 seed. Not a lot of options when the pull is set up that way. Not to mention, no one really knew what to expect from a lot of these teams, except PA/FL. A lot of teams were new teams (or new rosters) or teams new to the circuit like Flying V, BiB, ViDF, etc.

Do I want to play Meatballs/Panik Attack/Fully Loaded/Situation/TI^/USC/NYSH every tournament in pool play? No, but you deal with the pool you are put in. Bottom line is if you earn some respect and perform well at tournaments, you’re going to eventually get some easier pools.

Exactly. Again my team did not just form over night . Meatballs started in 2006.

By trying to make seedings fair and fun for everyone is not what the circuit is about. The circuit is built for competetive kickball. You earn your seedings. Next march should the NCAA have the #1 seeds play each other on each side?of course not because that would be stupid.


To me Circuit kickball is the best of the best going at it in tournaments. You earn your spot and your rankings. If this is going to draw teams away from it then so be it. I know there is a company out there built for "fun kickball".

Last time I check we're all recreational kickball players, i.e. no one gets paid to play kickball for a living. In fact it's the opposite. We actually pay a lot of money to travel and play in these tourneys. I HOPE the organizers are concerned with making it fair and fun. Because if that isn't "what the circuit is about" than it's a business model doomed for failure.

With that said, I think this is a good discussion about the seeding. I don't think the way VBKO did the seeding was way off. But at the same time, there probably could be some tweaks made just to add a little more balance. I think a lot of good ideas are being thrown out here.

First of all lets take Waka for example
Say its a 16 team league and everyone makes the playoffs. Should the #16 team not play # 1 cause its not fair? Should #1 and #2 have to play each other in round one for being the best 2 teams in the reg season?

That would not make any sense.

Yes we do all pay a lot of money to travel and play .My team has played in 6 tournaments in the past 15 months and earned our ranking. For someone to say it should be took away to make it fair for others is ridiculous.


Giving a team a pre seeding ranking IS the fair way to do it.

[MEATBALLKEVIN]

Last time I check we're all recreational kickball players, i.e. no one gets paid to play kickball for a living. In fact it's the opposite. We actually pay a lot of money to travel and play in these tourneys. I HOPE the organizers are concerned with making it fair and fun. Because if that isn't "what the circuit is about" than it's a business model doomed for failure. .

This is exactly my point, it's not about my team, your team it's about this league and it success moving forward. Thank You krabbas! Nice work on the boards today boys, great passing the time, off to the crib....see you all tomorrow!

Well if it ends up being the same 12 teams at every tournament because new teams got beat badlly then so be it.

If anything need to rank your top 4 teams going in to that tournament,put them at the top of each pool and random draw it from there. Luck of the draw.

Again, i was more debating what you said about making PA/MB play each other in round 1

[Edge]

I get it, your team had a bad day. But other new teams like Flying V, BiB, ViDF drew equally tough schedules and did great. Those three teams are fired up about the next Circuit event. They're not on the MB whining about how it's not fair that the team that Mercy Ruled just about everyone in the tournament (including the #3 seed) got an easier draw than them. They're currently practicing and recruiting new talent to improve. I've talked to people on BiB, ViDF, and FV since the tournament to see if there was anything I could do to help them get to where they want to be. I'm currently recruiting players for some of the Hampton Roads teams that are fired up about the Circuit.

Bottom line is just because your team is pissed that you played a bunch of the middle of the pack teams and lost each game, doesn't mean that the teams that played those same teams and had better results are ready to pack up and quit the Circuit. Just the opposite. They love the challenge and they're rising to the occasion.

Trey, if you get me cut from BiB because you're recruiting all this new talent for us I'm going to be pissed

[pDuncOnYourFace]

another way is the get rid of pool entirly......if have 20 team makes 4 groups w 5 teams in it....

example

group 1
meatballs
PA
FL
OSC
NYSH

u play 2 teams in this group....and 1 from groups 2,3....group 1 does not play group 4 at all....

I like this

[Howitzer]

I hear u Kevin, but a tourney like Mccoy said would draw a good crowd I think, because there would be no favoritism. That would be awesome, play who is n front of u!!! Tourney with some balls!

[krabbas]

I see both sides of the argument.

If you do seeding completely random, every tournament is going to have a pool that is lopsided. It may not happen often, but I guarantee you will have a tournament here and there that has 3 of the top teams in it. Conversely you're going to have pools with 3 lesser teams. It will ultimately cause problems at every tournament.

I think that because this tournament had 2 pools, instead of 3-4, it rubbed some people the wrong way because they had to play top teams. However, I think the seeding was done pretty fair. Yes, PA had a fairly easy road to single elimination, but A) they have earned it B) the pools were set up to where they didn’t have to play teams in their league (Situation & ViDF) and C) they weren’t going to play Fully Loaded as they were the #2 seed. Not a lot of options when the pull is set up that way. Not to mention, no one really knew what to expect from a lot of these teams, except PA/FL. A lot of teams were new teams (or new rosters) or teams new to the circuit like Flying V, BiB, ViDF, etc.

Do I want to play Meatballs/Panik Attack/Fully Loaded/Situation/TI^/USC/NYSH every tournament in pool play? No, but you deal with the pool you are put in. Bottom line is if you earn some respect and perform well at tournaments, you’re going to eventually get some easier pools.

Exactly. Again my team did not just form over night . Meatballs started in 2006.

By trying to make seedings fair and fun for everyone is not what the circuit is about. The circuit is built for competetive kickball. You earn your seedings. Next march should the NCAA have the #1 seeds play each other on each side?of course not because that would be stupid.


To me Circuit kickball is the best of the best going at it in tournaments. You earn your spot and your rankings. If this is going to draw teams away from it then so be it. I know there is a company out there built for "fun kickball".

Last time I check we're all recreational kickball players, i.e. no one gets paid to play kickball for a living. In fact it's the opposite. We actually pay a lot of money to travel and play in these tourneys. I HOPE the organizers are concerned with making it fair and fun. Because if that isn't "what the circuit is about" than it's a business model doomed for failure.

With that said, I think this is a good discussion about the seeding. I don't think the way VBKO did the seeding was way off. But at the same time, there probably could be some tweaks made just to add a little more balance. I think a lot of good ideas are being thrown out here.

First of all lets take Waka for example
Say its a 16 team league and everyone makes the playoffs. Should the #16 team not play # 1 cause its not fair? Should #1 and #2 have to play each other in round one for being the best 2 teams in the reg season?

That would not make any sense.

Yes we do all pay a lot of money to travel and play .My team has played in 6 tournaments in the past 15 months and earned our ranking. For someone to say it should be took away to make it fair for others is ridiculous.


Giving a team a pre seeding ranking IS the fair way to do it.

I agree, pre-ranking has it's benefits. But there should be some structure and transparency around the process for determining seeds. It's pretty clear that MB and PA are the top 2, so it's easy to assign them seeds (although even then, how do you determine who is the 1 and who is the 2 seed? The Meatballs vs. PA thread that Braswell started the other day shows that there is a lot of differing opinion on that)... If you're comparing it to a WAKA end of season tournament, the seedings are based on Win/Loss records that can't be disputed. There would be no disputing who the 1 seed was. There would be no disputing who the 16 seed was... As opposed to the circuit when the seeds are determined by the tournament organizer/committee based on which teams they FEEL are the best.

Unless there is going to be a agreed upon process for determining how seeds are given than this debate will always be there. I think the seeding issue is one that should be looked at as we continue to grow and improve the circuit tourneys.

(This is not to say that the VBKO wasn't well organized or that the seeding was unfair.)

[krabbas]

Last time I check we're all recreational kickball players, i.e. no one gets paid to play kickball for a living. In fact it's the opposite. We actually pay a lot of money to travel and play in these tourneys. I HOPE the organizers are concerned with making it fair and fun. Because if that isn't "what the circuit is about" than it's a business model doomed for failure. .

This is exactly my point, it's not about my team, your team it's about this league and it success moving forward. Thank You krabbas! Nice work on the boards today boys, great passing the time, off to the crib....see you all tomorrow!

Well if it ends up being the same 12 teams at every tournament because new teams got beat badlly then so be it.

If anything need to rank your top 4 teams going in to that tournament,put them at the top of each pool and random draw it from there. Luck of the draw.
Again, i was more debating what you said about making PA/MB play each other in round 1

That's not a bad idea.

[Trey it Up]

In our current system there is an advantage to being a top seed.

1. You're a lot more rested for elims. You get to rest your pitchers chargers and catchers since you're playing a majority of teams that have no chance to beat you

2. You're more likely to have a top seed coming out of pool play which usually gives you an easier road to the finals. This is more relevant in a 16 team bracket. While they other teams are battling and gassing pitchers you're most likely still resting players.

I'll take the situation panik game in the final four as my example in this scenario. Situation played 5 tough games before they had to play panik. Panik played 2. I doubt any of the best situation players got any rest in those games and the result was a 11.0 win over situation. could panik really beat situation 11.0 on a equal playing field with a rested blake.

If we were in the nfl which to me is the best league to watch cause of how equal the teams are.. they'd be doing everything in their power to try to make it harder for panik and meatballs to win. Not easier.

It's obvious to me that panik and meatballs are the best teams. What they're both worried about is playing each other before the final. How about putting a clause in to say that both teams have to be in opposite sides of the bracket. Then they could play each other before elims and it wouldn't be an issue

The NFL gives the top teams the weakest teams after forcing the weakest teams to play an additional game. I'm all for following that model if you want. Great recommendation!

Panik run ruled Situation for two reasons: 1) we have incredible depth and we probably could have played 10-12 games that day before being fatigued enough to diminish our performance, 2) we're an incredible kicking team that found holes in their defense over and over. No other excuse you make up holds water. We played the same number of games as them. Our defenders swapped innings all through the semifinals and finals just like we did all throughout the day. We weren't forced to play our best players (if you could even determined who is better at any position), we were fresher than every team because we are deeper than every team.

[MEATBALLKEVIN]

I hear u Kevin, but a tourney like Mccoy said would draw a good crowd I think, because there would be no favoritism. That would be awesome, play who is n front of u!!! Tourney with some balls!

Maybe once a year. I agree

But to throw away every past game,tournament,score and so on seems dumb to me. Lets just put all the players in a hat too and pick our teams that morning. You know?

We are not even half way through the circuit year and teams are already looking for a way to make their day easier.And PA and MB have only been to ONE event so far together.

You just cant win with some of the people on theses boards. They look for anyway to argue. If we were at VBKO they would be using another approach at saying it was not fair and everyone would have had a different schedule that morning!

[MEATBALLKEVIN]

Last time I check we're all recreational kickball players, i.e. no one gets paid to play kickball for a living. In fact it's the opposite. We actually pay a lot of money to travel and play in these tourneys. I HOPE the organizers are concerned with making it fair and fun. Because if that isn't "what the circuit is about" than it's a business model doomed for failure. .

This is exactly my point, it's not about my team, your team it's about this league and it success moving forward. Thank You krabbas! Nice work on the boards today boys, great passing the time, off to the crib....see you all tomorrow!

Well if it ends up being the same 12 teams at every tournament because new teams got beat badlly then so be it.

If anything need to rank your top 4 teams going in to that tournament,put them at the top of each pool and random draw it from there. Luck of the draw.
Again, i was more debating what you said about making PA/MB play each other in round 1

That's not a bad idea.

Dc has done that already. When it was brought up pre VBKO some on here shot it down

[MEATBALLKEVIN]

Last time I check we're all recreational kickball players, i.e. no one gets paid to play kickball for a living. In fact it's the opposite. We actually pay a lot of money to travel and play in these tourneys. I HOPE the organizers are concerned with making it fair and fun. Because if that isn't "what the circuit is about" than it's a business model doomed for failure. .

This is exactly my point, it's not about my team, your team it's about this league and it success moving forward. Thank You krabbas! Nice work on the boards today boys, great passing the time, off to the crib....see you all tomorrow!

Well if it ends up being the same 12 teams at every tournament because new teams got beat badlly then so be it.

If anything need to rank your top 4 teams going in to that tournament,put them at the top of each pool and random draw it from there. Luck of the draw.
Again, i was more debating what you said about making PA/MB play each other in round 1

That's not a bad idea.

Dc has done that already. When it was brought up pre VBKO some on here shot it down

And the top 4 teams are submitted by each captain. Its very fair

[Trey it Up]

Yeah, but that was before they had to play a bunch of middle tier teams in pool play.

[MEATBALLKEVIN]

Yeah, but that was before they had to play a bunch of middle tier teams in pool play.

ridiculous.

[Howitzer]

I see ur point! Need seeding in the circuit I think. Every team I play on will be a mid quality squad. I'm fine with the seeding, its the point system that blows. Should be 3 points for a win, 1point for a tie and 0 points for a loss....

[pDuncOnYourFace]

I'd put a grand down that panik couldn't beat situation by 11 game 1 of a tournament

I agree that you have more depth.

by nfl parody I mean giving the super bowl champs the toughest regular season schedule

if I were on paniks team I would want to play teams ranked 1 to 7 with meatballs pool play and meatballs in finals

panik playing skittles is a fail

[Return of Ctiger]

I understand people are getting annoyed that mb and PA keep winning. And I understand people arguing about how the pools are done, but our team is a great example of earning what u get. Last year we played 2 tournamentsand both times we had PA in our pool. Then in single elim we had to play mb early due to a loss in pool play. In sfko we had a new top team in our pool, lock it up. This time we won that game and the reward was not facing the mb or PA til the final 4. After playing them close we EARNED our ranking at vbko and got an easier pool play schedule then most and yes, we had arguably an easier road to the finals (on paper. I'm not taking anything away from bib or shower hammers cause they could both play with anyone).

My point here is all u have to do if u wanna benefit from the current format is to back up your talk on the field. U all say there is so much parity after the top two but we are the only team that can say no team has ever beat us in a circuit other then the top two. Put us in any pool u want and we are going to play who ever is in front of us and continue to win. Until someone proves otherwise we should not have to play one of the top two in the morning cause we EARNED it.

And jdeep u guys beat us in Waka and mb mercied us in Waka. I believe in circuit rules we are 1-1 against u. I have said all along I think u guys are right there with us, unfortunately you guys arent as involved in the circuit so far, so according to what has been done on a circuit field we are, and should be the number 3 team.

[MEATBALLKEVIN]

I'd put a grand down that panik couldn't beat situation by 11 game 1 of a tournament

I agree that you have more depth.

by nfl parody I mean giving the super bowl champs the toughest regular season schedule

if I were on paniks team I would want to play teams ranked 1 to 7 with meatballs pool play and meatballs in finals

panik playing skittles is a fail

That is pretty much what we have been doing in weekly league play here for years. But tournaments are another story

[krabbas]

I understand people are getting annoyed that mb and PA keep winning. And I understand people arguing about how the pools are done, but our team is a great example of earning what u get. Last year we played 2 tournamentsand both times we had PA in our pool. Then in single elim we had to play mb early due to a loss in pool play. In sfko we had a new top team in our pool, lock it up. This time we won that game and the reward was not facing the mb or PA til the final 4. After playing them close we EARNED our ranking at vbko and got an easier pool play schedule then most and yes, we had arguably an easier road to the finals (on paper. I'm not taking anything away from bib or shower hammers cause they could both play with anyone).

My point here is all u have to do if u wanna benefit from the current format is to back up your talk on the field. U all say there is so much parity after the top two but we are the only team that can say no team has ever beat us in a circuit other then the top two. Put us in any pool u want and we are going to play who ever is in front of us and continue to win. Until someone proves otherwise we should not have to play one of the top two in the morning cause we EARNED it.

And jdeep u guys beat us in Waka and mb mercied us in Waka. I believe in circuit rules we are 1-1 against u. I have said all along I think u guys are right there with us, unfortunately you guys arent as involved in the circuit so far, so according to what has been done on a circuit field we are, and should be the number 3 team.

This isn't about being annoyed at MB or PA. How about my team? We were ranked lower than ViDF, not because of any concrete factual data (neither team had played in a 2011 tourney), but because the tournament organizers were more familiar with some of the individual players on ViDF, than some of the players who played with The Emperors Club in a league 45 minutes away...

I'm not complaining about it. I had an AWESOME morning, and all I do is play every team in front of me to the best of my ability... But this is a flaw in the system.

(Of course we may be making more of a big deal about the seeds than we need to be since the #6 seed had the same schedule as the #12. And it's not like anyone really had an "easier" schedule. Almost all of the teams that came out to VBKO were competitive and held their own.)

[MEATBALLKEVIN]

I think pre tourny vbko rankings were right on. It was clear that 1 mid pack team was not going to make it. and look at the records to end the morning.




1 Panik Attack 4 0 0 0 4.00 1.000 38 0 38 4 0
.
2 2 Fully Loaded 3 0 1 0 3.50 0.875 27 4 23 4 0
.
3 3 Other Shot Callers 3 0 1 0 3.50 0.875 17 10 7 4 0
.
4 4 The Situation 2 0 2 0 3.00 0.750 13 5 8 4 0
.
5 5 It's Just TI Squaring 3 1 0 0 3.00 0.750 8 8 0 4 0
.
6 6 New York Shower Hammers 1 0 3 0 2.50 0.625 12 9 3 4 0
.
7 7 Back in Black 2 1 1 0 2.50 0.625 9 9 0 4 0
.
8 8 Flying V 2 1 1 0 2.50 0.625 24 13 11 4 0
.--------------------------------------------------------------------
6 9 Inglorious Bastards 0 2 2 0 1.00 0.250 3 5 -2 4 0
.
5 10 Victory in Da Feet 1 3 0 0 1.00 0.250 13 16 -3 4 0
.
4 11 Mo' Tussin 0 2 2 0 1.00 0.250 11 23 -12 4 0
.
3 12 Team Skittles 0 3 1 0 0.50 0.125 7 41 -34 4 0
.
2 13 Emperor's Club 0 4 0 0 0.00 0.000 5 14 -9 4 0
.
1 14 Just For Kicks 0 4 0 0 0.00 0.000 0 30 -30 4 0
.
Legend:

[MEATBALLKEVIN]

Some please tell me what their problem is with pool play seedings.

[Trey it Up]

I guess when you have over half the tournament complaining that their pool was too tough, the tournament must have been a success. We need more women in kickball. You dudes bitch too much.

[krabbas]

I think pre tourny vbko rankings were right on. It was clear that 1 mid pack team was not going to make it. and look at the records to end the morning.




1 Panik Attack 4 0 0 0 4.00 1.000 38 0 38 4 0
.
2 2 Fully Loaded 3 0 1 0 3.50 0.875 27 4 23 4 0
.
3 3 Other Shot Callers 3 0 1 0 3.50 0.875 17 10 7 4 0
.
4 4 The Situation 2 0 2 0 3.00 0.750 13 5 8 4 0
.
5 5 It's Just TI Squaring 3 1 0 0 3.00 0.750 8 8 0 4 0
.
6 6 New York Shower Hammers 1 0 3 0 2.50 0.625 12 9 3 4 0
.
7 7 Back in Black 2 1 1 0 2.50 0.625 9 9 0 4 0
.
8 8 Flying V 2 1 1 0 2.50 0.625 24 13 11 4 0
.--------------------------------------------------------------------
6 9 Inglorious Bastards 0 2 2 0 1.00 0.250 3 5 -2 4 0
.
5 10 Victory in Da Feet 1 3 0 0 1.00 0.250 13 16 -3 4 0
.
4 11 Mo' Tussin 0 2 2 0 1.00 0.250 11 23 -12 4 0
.
3 12 Team Skittles 0 3 1 0 0.50 0.125 7 41 -34 4 0
.
2 13 Emperor's Club 0 4 0 0 0.00 0.000 5 14 -9 4 0
.
1 14 Just For Kicks 0 4 0 0 0.00 0.000 0 30 -30 4 0
.
Legend:

Yeah, a couple of things though... The tourney didn't go strictly by the seedings (so this could all be a moot point)

But if you rank someone low, and theoretically give them a tougher schedule, than don't you increase the odds that they will finish low? It's like a self fulfilling prophecy. lol

[krabbas]

I guess when you have over half the tournament complaining that their pool was too tough, the tournament must have been a success. We need more women in kickball. You dudes bitch too much.

I'm not bitching about it. And I don't think it our schedule was "too tough"... Just saying that the process for determining the seeding can be improved.

[krabbas]

I guess when you have over half the tournament complaining that their pool was too tough, the tournament must have been a success. We need more women in kickball. You dudes bitch too much.

I'm not bitching about it. And I don't think it our schedule was "too tough"... Just saying that the process for determining the seeding can be improved.

Unless you think that a group of kickball illuminati arbitratily assigning rankings based on their subjective feelings is the best process... which in that case, I guess we will agree to disagree.

[sedlak5]

I understand people are getting annoyed that mb and PA keep winning. And I understand people arguing about how the pools are done, but our team is a great example of earning what u get. Last year we played 2 tournamentsand both times we had PA in our pool. Then in single elim we had to play mb early due to a loss in pool play. In sfko we had a new top team in our pool, lock it up. This time we won that game and the reward was not facing the mb or PA til the final 4. After playing them close we EARNED our ranking at vbko and got an easier pool play schedule then most and yes, we had arguably an easier road to the finals (on paper. I'm not taking anything away from bib or shower hammers cause they could both play with anyone).

My point here is all u have to do if u wanna benefit from the current format is to back up your talk on the field. U all say there is so much parity after the top two but we are the only team that can say no team has ever beat us in a circuit other then the top two. Put us in any pool u want and we are going to play who ever is in front of us and continue to win. Until someone proves otherwise we should not have to play one of the top two in the morning cause we EARNED it.

And jdeep u guys beat us in Waka and mb mercied us in Waka. I believe in circuit rules we are 1-1 against u. I have said all along I think u guys are right there with us, unfortunately you guys arent as involved in the circuit so far, so according to what has been done on a circuit field we are, and should be the number 3 team.

I'm still going to rank Fully Loaded #3 in the next poll that comes out - despite not scoring a single run against either of the top 2 teams in over 30 innings and losing to the Beachslappers in Ultra in April. On a National scale they have beaten the other potential #3 teams that they have faced and for now deserve it!

[Trey it Up]

Unless you think that a group of kickball illuminati arbitratily assigning rankings based on their subjective feelings is the best process... which in that case, I guess we will agree to disagree.

It's mostly objective, with subjectivity used as a tie-breaker. When you're seeded as one of the bottom seeds and you go 0-4, it's tough to argue that you were seeded inaccurately…unless of course you are using subjectivity as your only measure.

[Karl]

fully loaded - y'all alright by me.

[Edge]

I guess when you have over half the tournament complaining that their pool was too tough, the tournament must have been a success. We need more women in kickball. You dudes bitch too much.

I'm not bitching about it. And I don't think it our schedule was "too tough"... Just saying that the process for determining the seeding can be improved.

Unless you think that a group of kickball illuminati arbitratily assigning rankings based on their subjective feelings is the best process... which in that case, I guess we will agree to disagree.

Brent,

I'm not trying to start anything but most everyone would have had ViDF ranked over EC based on their knowledge of players on both teams. I've never even seen your team play and I know a few people on it. Not to mention your Wednesday night charger (ANT) for EC was playing with ViDF right?

How would you have ranked all 14 teams before the tournament?

[JimmyB]

Couple things:

Pre-tournament seedings
Someone mentioned that you need to take into account which team is traveling with their best roster, a patchwork roster, etc... and not JUST what happened the last time they played in a tournament.
Possible solution? Maybe if you can find 3 members of this community who know teams and can receive HONEST (that part is important) information about each team traveling, you could form a "pre-tournament seeding committee". Same 3 people for every tournament, who's job (would be a fun hobby) is to find out more information about each team attending the tournament.

Tie-breakers before elimination rounds
At this point, there's been 2 major tournaments where more than one good team shows up, and there have been issues with either who gets in, or where they are placed once they get in. There has to be some amendments to the list of tie-breakers. I am urging the leaders of the circuit to act now, rather than later. Something like this CAN ruin a team's impression of the circuit and cause them not to come back. Regardless of what anyone says about not wanting teams who dont want to improve, if you have team A (use Jellystone Rangers for example) who did actually earn a spot in single elim, but did not get in, that is wrong. And that stands for any level of competitive play.
Solution: Nothing that has ever happened before the games were played that day should EVER count towards a tie-breaker. While pre-tournament rankings are largely based on your accomplishments, everyone should get a clean slate once the first pitch is thrown/rolled.

Growing the circuit?
It's really the most neglected topic of discussion on this board, in my opinion. I feel like people need to look at it from an upstart team's perspective. If you are forming a team, what about the circuit is going to encourage you AND your players (or prospective players) to come back? For every Flying V (and Scoregasm, because while we don't make nearly as much noise about ourselves, our goals for our team do not differ much from them at all) there are 25 other teams who could field a competitive team, but didn't really get the experience they needed out of one tournament to get them hooked.

If you've got one player (dp3 i think is a good example?) who really wants to get involved in the circuit, seems to be a good leader, but can't seem to convince his team it's worth it... instead of saying "fuck 'em, we don't want that shitty team anyways"... why in the hell would you not at least ask why?

In my opinion payouts to other than 1st and 2nd is important, and here's why... You guys all know you troll on the forums. You throw out a little bait, get someone to bite, and they are involved in that topic. You could easily translate that philosophy to the tournaments. If you get a surprise team in the final 4, let's say they only get $250... well to teams who've been playing and are mainstays on the circuit, that's no big deal, but to a team who is still on the up and up, trying to get more talent... that is a selling point. Trying to get a sponsor? You took home a prize in a circuit event. Maybe the sponsor is inclined to agree to match your winnings (we've already had one sponsor agree to do that).

Point is that nothing really needs to change to keep the teams we currently have, but there are many great athletes and competitive people out there who could be forming teams if the circuit was some how "new-team friendly". And I don't mean getting easy schedules.

[Catch-22]

I like ranking teams going into the tourneys because it avoids the true pools of death (something like MB, PA, Balls Deeper, and Team Skittles). A true pool of death is what is most likely to scare off a new team IMO.

However, I think what we learned from VBKO is that the rankings are much more effective when you have more pools. When the #6 seed and the #12 seed have the exact same schedule, the system has failed. What's the point of being ranked #6? By Trey and Kevin's logic, the better the seed, the easier that team's schedule should be for pool play because A) they earned it and B) it better distributes the best teams in elims so that they will be on opposite sides of the bracket. I completely agree with that actually. BUT that logic has to hold true for ALL of the teams. Not just #1 and #2.

In fairness, I know that the schedule makers were trying to take into account people's regions so teams could play teams from different areas. I get that. But then make slight adjustments in the rankings so as not to inadvertently punish a higher seed for the sake of not playing teams from the same region. It's something for the tournament schedule makers to keep in mind going forward.

[Catch-22]

Couple things:

Pre-tournament seedings
Someone mentioned that you need to take into account which team is traveling with their best roster, a patchwork roster, etc... and not JUST what happened the last time they played in a tournament.
Possible solution? Maybe if you can find 3 members of this community who know teams and can receive HONEST (that part is important) information about each team traveling, you could form a "pre-tournament seeding committee". Same 3 people for every tournament, who's job (would be a fun hobby) is to find out more information about each team attending the tournament.

I think that is a fantastic idea.

[Karl]

Growing the circuit?

In my opinion payouts to other than 1st and 2nd is important, and here's why... You guys all know you troll on the forums. You throw out a little bait, get someone to bite, and they are involved in that topic. You could easily translate that philosophy to the tournaments. If you get a surprise team in the final 4, let's say they only get $250... well to teams who've been playing and are mainstays on the circuit, that's no big deal, but to a team who is still on the up and up, trying to get more talent... that is a selling point. Trying to get a sponsor? You took home a prize in a circuit event. Maybe the sponsor is inclined to agree to match your winnings (we've already had one sponsor agree to do that).

http://www.kickball365.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=427&t=13166&p