[GKO] Possible Brackets/Pool Play Scenario

[FlyingV]

All,

I come to the message board for advice and help. You are the most valuable resource and I value your opinion... except for

Here are my thoughts...

Pools- 3 pools of 4 teams
Elimination- All 12 teams advance with 1 and 2 receiving byes.
Pool Selection- Snake draft with regional protection.
Pool A- (1,6,7,12) Pool B- (2,5,8,11) Pool C- (3,4,9,10)

Schedule: Games at 9:00, 10:00, 11:00 LUNCH (12:00-1:00) Elims: 1:10, 2:15, 3:30, 4:45 (Finals)

And..... GO!

[Trey it Up]

Sounds good!

[j22201]

Example:

Teams
1 Panik Attack
2 Flying V
3 JKID
4 Situation
5 Team X
6 Beta
7 Legit
8 DSCA
9 We Own You
10 Alcobolics Anonymous
11 Big Ballin Is Our Hobby
12 Party Rockers

Pool A
1 Panik Attack
6 Beta
7 Legit
12 Party Rockers

Pool B
2 Flying V
5 Team X
8 DSCA
11 Big Ballin Is Our Hobby

Pool C
3 JKID
4 Situation
9 We Own You
10 Alcobolics Anonymous

[JellyDogg]

One thing you could do to make the 1st round elim bye a better advantage for the top teams is to shorten the lunch break.

[btaylor]

I would rather see 4 pool play games, but am not sure how you would do that schedule? Maybe 2 pools of 6? SFKO had one pool of 6 and I don't remember hearing a lot of complaining about it. I just dont know how you set up who plays who. I definitely don't think everyone should make single elim. 8 teams should make elims.

[FlyingV]

One thing you could do to make the 1st round elim bye a better advantage for the top teams is to shorten the lunch break.

Yes- lunch may only be 45 minutes. Who needs lunch anyways. Also with this scenario there could easily be (3) 3-0 teams with only 2 byes. Might make the top teams take pool play a little more seriously.

[Lost_Sage]

Agreed that you're either stuck with 3 pools of 4 or 2 pools of 6. But there has been some debate on who skips who in a pool of 6, to say the least, and to put it mildly ...

I would rather see 4 pool play games, but am not sure how you would do that schedule? Maybe 2 pools of 6? SFKO had one pool of 6 and I don't remember hearing a lot of complaining about it. I just dont know how you set up who plays who. I definitely don't think everyone should make single elim. 8 teams should make elims.

[btaylor]

Also though, wouldnt the top 2 getting a bye make it seven teams in the "second" round of elims? That wouldn't work, you'd have to have 4 byes.

[FlyingV]

Also though, wouldnt the top 2 getting a bye make it seven teams in the "second" round of elims? That wouldn't work, you'd have to have 4 byes.

You're right... 4 byes.

[btaylor]

Also though, wouldnt the top 2 getting a bye make it seven teams in the "second" round of elims? That wouldn't work, you'd have to have 4 byes.

You're right... 4 byes.

With 1/3 of the field sitting for 2 hours waiting to play, i definitely think 8 making single elims is the way to go. In pool play the top 3 teams (v, panik, jkid) are still going to fight for the 1 seed so they dont have to face one of the other top seeds until the finals and now the middle/bottom teams will be fighting to make the top 8 to make elims. If everyone makes it, what's the point of pool play?

[FlyingV]

I would rather see 4 pool play games, but am not sure how you would do that schedule? Maybe 2 pools of 6? SFKO had one pool of 6 and I don't remember hearing a lot of complaining about it. I just dont know how you set up who plays who. I definitely don't think everyone should make single elim. 8 teams should make elims.

We were in that pool, went 3-1 and finished 3rd in the pool and beat the team that finished 1st. We had an issue with it.

[FlyingV]

Also though, wouldnt the top 2 getting a bye make it seven teams in the "second" round of elims? That wouldn't work, you'd have to have 4 byes.

You're right... 4 byes.

With 1/3 of the field sitting for 2 hours waiting to play, i definitely think 8 making single elims is the way to go. In pool play the top 3 teams (v, panik, jkid) are still going to fight for the 1 seed so they dont have to face one of the other top seeds until the finals and now the middle/bottom teams will be fighting to make the top 8 to make elims. If everyone makes it, what's the point of pool play?

Would it be better if we said after lunch the bottom 8 teams play an elimination game to make it to Elims?

[btaylor]

Also though, wouldnt the top 2 getting a bye make it seven teams in the "second" round of elims? That wouldn't work, you'd have to have 4 byes.

You're right... 4 byes.

With 1/3 of the field sitting for 2 hours waiting to play, i definitely think 8 making single elims is the way to go. In pool play the top 3 teams (v, panik, jkid) are still going to fight for the 1 seed so they dont have to face one of the other top seeds until the finals and now the middle/bottom teams will be fighting to make the top 8 to make elims. If everyone makes it, what's the point of pool play?

Would it be better if we said after lunch the bottom 8 teams play an elimination game to make it to Elims?

No, cause its the same thing, everyone makes it. I just am against the idea of everyone making single elims, but i understand the pooling/scheduling shitshow if you do it like I'm saying. That might cause more problems than it solves though, so I dont know. Isn't that why you get the big money to run these tournaments

[Trey it Up]

How about no lunch break. Schedule the top teams' bye in the first round of pp. Middle tiered teams get the last round bye. Top seeds can get lunch during first round of elimination.

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[btaylor]

How about no lunch break. Schedule the top teams' bye in the first round of pp. Middle tiered teams get the last round bye. Top seeds can get lunch during first round of elimination.


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There aren't any byes in that format. Honestly, I'm good with a 15 minute lunch break or no break at all.

[JellyDogg]

For a pool of 6, #1 doesn't play #6, #2 doesn't play #5, and #3 doesn't play #4. The problem is that it's not a round robin, so there will always be somebody complaining that one team didn't have to play so-and-so while this other team did.

[Trey it Up]

How about no lunch break. Schedule the top teams' bye in the first round of pp. Middle tiered teams get the last round bye. Top seeds can get lunch during first round of elimination.


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There aren't any byes in that format. Honestly, I'm good with a 15 minute lunch break or no break at all.

You're right. No breaks! Make it a fast tournament.

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[Zak]

How about no lunch break. Schedule the top teams' bye in the first round of pp. Middle tiered teams get the last round bye. Top seeds can get lunch during first round of elimination.


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There aren't any byes in that format. Honestly, I'm good with a 15 minute lunch break or no break at all.

It's already been established that the byes and lunch breaks are there for the refs benefit.

Opinions expressed in this post are Zak's and Zak's alone. Except when the voices in his head take over then they aren't even his.

[JohnPWilks]

Having no lunch break will never fly with any referee that you have. It's hard to ask anyone (including myself) to go up to 7hrs on your feet with out a least at a MINIMUM of a 30 minute break.

[Trey it Up]

How about no lunch break. Schedule the top teams' bye in the first round of pp. Middle tiered teams get the last round bye. Top seeds can get lunch during first round of elimination.


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There aren't any byes in that format. Honestly, I'm good with a 15 minute lunch break or no break at all.

You're right. No breaks! Make it a fast tournament.

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[Duff]

How about no lunch break. Schedule the top teams' bye in the first round of pp. Middle tiered teams get the last round bye. Top seeds can get lunch during first round of elimination.


Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

There aren't any byes in that format. Honestly, I'm good with a 15 minute lunch break or no break at all.

You're right. No breaks! Make it a fast tournament.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

As someone that has a wedding at 5 PM, I strongly agree with this strategy...

Is there any possibility of having enough refs to basically have ref byes (rotating lunches) throughout the day? Also, if we're going to have 4(!) teams with byes, then I think playing a normal four game pool play and picking the top eight is a much better way to go. Whether that involves 3 pools with cross-play or two pools of six I don't know.

[FlyingV]

As someone that has a wedding at 5 PM, I strongly agree with this strategy...

Is there any possibility of having enough refs to basically have ref byes (rotating lunches) throughout the day? Also, if we're going to have 4(!) teams with byes, then I think playing a normal four game pool play and picking the top eight is a much better way to go. Whether that involves 3 pools with cross-play or two pools of six I don't know.

Throw out possible crossover games and I'll listen. This is what I want to do but can't figure out who to (fairly) play who.

I swear someone posted a solution to fix the Austin fiasco (Flades, Horses, Bellman, Hollywood? I can't remember who) and searched the boards all day yesterday till I gave up.

[MEATBALLKEVIN]

Flying V vs Panik Finals

PA jumps on them early then takes foot off the gas out of respect for their ATL homeboys. 6-3 final

Post tournament interview with flying V- " We played very well and are where we want to be as a team. We only lost by 3 to Panik and are looking forward to the next event where we will have are strongest team to date" - Joe

[j22201]

ahhhhhh Kev, I've missed you....

[j22201]

Who all is on the Team x besides Patty O, Pdunc, Bile, ?

[Bile]

I think the most logical way to do it has already been stated.


3 Pools.
3 Pool Play games.

Top-4 after the first three games automatically advance to the round of 8.

Bottom-8 teams after the first three games must play "Play-In Games" to advance to the round of 8.

Every team is guaranteed 4 games. Every team has control of their own destiny, and cannot cry foul play if they have an unfair fourth game in a possible 2-Pool format.

Schedule a 30min lunch. Top-4 teams will have a longer layover, but that's fine, as they can take a 45min break and begin warming up for a run through elims. The bottom teams still get a small break before going into their play-in games.

Also, not all refs will be needed for Play-In Games, so after the first three games, the committee should Tier their refs, and give the top refs a break during the Play-In Games... that way they have more rest and will be good to go for the Round of 8.

Problem solved.

Quit crying about "only 8 teams should make single elimination"... when in reality, if you're 1-2 after three games and didn't take care of business (or 2-1, or 1-1-1), you will always have to approach that 4th game as a MUST WIN situation or risk not advancing. This is no different. There can only be a maximum of 3 teams at 3-0, therefore if you are in a Play-In Game, at best you are 2-1, and the fourth game would be a MUST WIN in any case, or you risk not advancing on tie break.

It's all semantics.

[Trey it Up]

Even pools in a six team pool scenario:

#1: vs. 2, 3, 4, 5
#2: vs. 1, 3, 4, 6
#3: vs. 1, 2, 5, 6
#4: vs. 1, 2, 5, 6
#5: vs. 1, 3, 4, 6
#6: vs. 2, 3, 4, 5

Every team has a SOS average of 3.5.

[Bile]

I agree with Trey that the above would be the best format for a 2-Pool format. If I had to choose between the format I posted and the two pool format, however, I would go with the one I posted for the following reason...

The 2-Pool format puts more emphasis on pre-tourney seedings, which are almost always severely flawed once you get past the first 2 or 3 teams. This format relies heavily on seedings in order to maintain even Strength of Schedule. On the other hand, the three pools will certainly separate the top-3 teams, and the middle teams will ALL have an even chance to play their way into the Elite-8.

Definitely agree that Trey's post is the best way for the 2 pools... but what if the seedings are quite wrong?

Either way, no biggie... gotta play your way in during the fourth game of the day. They are just two ways of looking at the exact same scenario.

[Trey it Up]

I've yet to see a tournament where the seedings were notably off. If you know who the top teams are, and you know who the bottom teams are, ranking the middle teams accurately becomes far less necessary. The middle teams will all beat each other up. If one ends up doing well and standing out amongst the bunch, that team gets a shot at proving themselves in elimination.

I'm not for or against either set up. I think both will work.

[Bile]

That's fair. I think you're right about the middle teams. I dont' have a -strong- opinion on either, but think in the play-in game format teams will have more of a feeling of controlling their own destiny.

Teams may have less to complain about in the possible case of two of their "middle" games being against underrated teams. I'd tell them to shut the eff up and just win to make sure you advance, but there would almost certainly be some type of complaint afterward.

Really looking forward to the next two weekends... should be two crazy tourneys.

[Duff]

I think that because our team (especially Brick) travels well and has plenty of knowledge of the other teams plus the fact that we are all VERY familiar with the teams out of Atlanta, should make any concern about accurate ranking an after-thought.

[Trey it Up]

In the six team bracket, there really isn't much room for complaint. The #5 seed has it just as easy as the #2 seed. The #4 seed has it just as easy as the #3 seed. It actually gives you quite a bit of flexibility to mess up ranking the middle teams.

By contrast, rankings in the three pool brackets become much more dependent on accurate seeding.

#1: average SOS of 3.00
#2: average SOS of 2.67
#3: average SOS of 2.33
#4: average SOS of 2.00

[Bile]

Fair point. By contrast though, where the 2 pool format allows for a more even strength of schedule if rankings are accurate... in the 3 pool format even though the lower ranked teams have a tougher strength of schedule, they still have the opportunity to earn their way into the elite-8 by beating a higher ranked team in the play-in round.

You're right though. Just making the argument for the other side of it.

On one hand, even strength of schedule (based on rankings), and on the other, more incentive to produce in Pool Play, with equitable format for middle/lower seed teams that fail to produce early.

I'm fine with either. Though with the two pool format, I'd argue for no regional protection and simply rank top to bottom.

[FlyingV]

Fair point. By contrast though, where the 2 pool format allows for a more even strength of schedule if rankings are accurate... in the 3 pool format even though the lower ranked teams have a tougher strength of schedule, they still have the opportunity to earn their way into the elite-8 by beating a higher ranked team in the play-in round.

You're right though. Just making the argument for the other side of it.

On one hand, even strength of schedule (based on rankings), and on the other, more incentive to produce in Pool Play, with equitable format for middle/lower seed teams that fail to produce early.

I'm fine with either. Though with the two pool format, I'd argue for no regional protection and simply rank top to bottom.

So it seems that Trey's schedule with a two, 6 team brackets and the 3 pools of 4 would both provide pretty even routes. Now to flip a coin. See y'all at the Meet and Greet!

[btaylor]

Fair point. By contrast though, where the 2 pool format allows for a more even strength of schedule if rankings are accurate... in the 3 pool format even though the lower ranked teams have a tougher strength of schedule, they still have the opportunity to earn their way into the elite-8 by beating a higher ranked team in the play-in round.

You're right though. Just making the argument for the other side of it.

On one hand, even strength of schedule (based on rankings), and on the other, more incentive to produce in Pool Play, with equitable format for middle/lower seed teams that fail to produce early.

I'm fine with either. Though with the two pool format, I'd argue for no regional protection and simply rank top to bottom.

So it seems that Trey's schedule with a two, 6 team brackets and the 3 pools of 4 would both provide pretty even routes. Now to flip a coin. See y'all at the Meet and Greet!

After what mms went through in Austin, I guess I'd vote for Biles plan.

[JimmyB]

MMS did not go through anything that would happen here. In austin, the top 2 teams in the 6-team pool did not have to play each other. This would not be the case, so not a concern.

2 Pools of 6 is probably much easier to run than the other. On top of that, if all 12 teams make single eliminations, that diminishes the points earned for actually making single elim. Admin explained that to me while in Jax but I can not recall exactly what he said.

[j22201]

I kind of like the 3 pools of 4. IDK

[btaylor]

When will the pools/schedule be announced?

[FlyingV]

When will the pools/schedule be announced?

Meet and Greet!

See y'all there!

[Kickbot]

When will the pools/schedule be announced?

Meet and Greet!

See y'all there!

Stop the madness! Announce the pools before Friday!