Post here once confirmed

[PittsBurgheR]

They could always steal from swimming, or lumberjacking, or any other sport on ESPN 8 "The Ocho", and have regional qualifiers to sort out the crud. I realize that our divisions could already be considered that, but it is srtating to appear that there may need to be another step in the selection process. This may also help with the current "first come, first served" method of registration.

[Lost_Sage]

I'm all for managing expectations. (If you're in a client-focused industry, that just saves you so much grief.) As I said earlier, even WAKA did me a favor as Star prez by designating our league as advanced and the other Tuesday league as beginner/intermediate.

So I ran with the designation and reminded people on the web and captains of that constantly -- in my captains' FAQ, I specifically said, "if you have a problem with fast pitching and bunting, please ask to be moved to NY Hero," and, "while you must kick everyone, you should assign people in the field in good faith, making sure they know they've signed up for an advanced kickball league."

The short, short version:

(1) Keep it in Vegas (agree with Mozbot's point about travel accessibility/prices).
(2) Make the tourney two tiers/skill levels (one open/competitive, one recreational), even if the leagues aren't. Then the rec division can have the problems with waiting lists and all that other BS ... and we won't.

Lost_Sage is right. The only trouble would be to convince a team that "battled" its way to a championship within their division to switch to the Rec side of things and loosen up. But who knows. It seems like a viable option.

Its a structure they have down in the VAVI tournament in San Diego, competative vs. fun. It seems to work well.

[Dematas]

I'm all for managing expectations. (If you're in a client-focused industry, that just saves you so much grief.) As I said earlier, even WAKA did me a favor as Star prez by designating our league as advanced and the other Tuesday league as beginner/intermediate.

So I ran with the designation and reminded people on the web and captains of that constantly -- in my captains' FAQ, I specifically said, "if you have a problem with fast pitching and bunting, please ask to be moved to NY Hero," and, "while you must kick everyone, you should assign people in the field in good faith, making sure they know they've signed up for an advanced kickball league."

The short, short version:

(1) Keep it in Vegas (agree with Mozbot's point about travel accessibility/prices).
(2) Make the tourney two tiers/skill levels (one open/competitive, one recreational), even if the leagues aren't. Then the rec division can have the problems with waiting lists and all that other BS ... and we won't.

Lost_Sage is right. The only trouble would be to convince a team that "battled" its way to a championship within their division to switch to the Rec side of things and loosen up. But who knows. It seems like a viable option.

Its a structure they have down in the VAVI tournament in San Diego, competative vs. fun. It seems to work well.

Yeah, at least that gives people the option so they know what they are getting into. Otherwise, people compain about teams being too competitive and no fun.

[Sleeveless]

Or they could hold it somewhere that isn't Vegas, which would eliminate most of the crappy teams that fill up this tournament.

Then you only have to worry about the crappy local teams, not the crappy teams from all over the country.

I'll take 5-10 locally crappy teams over 100 nationally crappy teams.

They should have a play-in either that Friday or earlier on Saturday (morning when it is cooler).

[JellyDogg]

Or they could hold it somewhere that isn't Vegas, which would eliminate most of the crappy teams that fill up this tournament.

Not really the point of the tournament though. Having it in a highly popular location like Las Vegas that has reasonable travel rates (airfair and hotel) makes it very attractive to a wide audience and very accessible.

If you look at the breakdown of lets just call it East Coast vs. West Coast teams its a 56%/44% split with East having the edge so far, showing that its pretty equal on enthusiasm.

Where would you rather a tournament that has reached this size be located that's gonna get that same sort of pull?

I think we're all well aware of the reasons WAKA wants it in Vegas. It's not a competitive tourney, they just want to market it as one gigantic party (which it's really not), so those are the kind of teams they will attract. However, they simultaneously market it as the "world championships" and the end all be all of kickball, but the participants of it are mostly selected by random chance instead of by how good they actually are. It just further proves that the Founders Cup is the most over-rated, over-hyped tournament out there.

There are 2 types of teams going to this "world championship": Teams that want to play tournament kickball and party afterward, and teams that want to party and, if there's time, maybe kick a ball around a little, too. I guarantee you the majority of teams going fit in with the latter category, and many of them are in at the expense of teams in the former category. And even though most of the top teams somehow slipped into the tournament (again, mostly by random chance), Many of them won't see a quality opponent until single elimination, and some of them probably not until the 2nd round. Instead of being a great tournament, it's just a massively diluted one.

[mozbot]

I'm all for managing expectations. (If you're in a client-focused industry, that just saves you so much grief.) As I said earlier, even WAKA did me a favor as Star prez by designating our league as advanced and the other Tuesday league as beginner/intermediate.

So I ran with the designation and reminded people on the web and captains of that constantly -- in my captains' FAQ, I specifically said, "if you have a problem with fast pitching and bunting, please ask to be moved to NY Hero," and, "while you must kick everyone, you should assign people in the field in good faith, making sure they know they've signed up for an advanced kickball league."

I'm guessing that you run into several of the issues that we have, which is that teams (competative, fun or however you wanna tag them) are constantly under the threat of having random players added to the teams to max out the roster and fill up spots. Obviously, we're getting off topic here a bit. But WAKA has a habit of looking out for number one over the customer. I play on one team that has 13 players and I get to field just about every inning and kick a few times. I also play on other teams that are maxed at 26. Very different feeling, obvioulsy. Though neither is necessarilly (sp?) better.

Do you have self-imposed team size limits in Star? Just curious.

[Retired]

At least you get to participate in said tourney.

[The Sofa King]

Or they could hold it somewhere that isn't Vegas, which would eliminate most of the crappy teams that fill up this tournament.

Not really the point of the tournament though. Having it in a highly popular location like Las Vegas that has reasonable travel rates (airfair and hotel) makes it very attractive to a wide audience and very accessible.

If you look at the breakdown of lets just call it East Coast vs. West Coast teams its a 56%/44% split with East having the edge so far, showing that its pretty equal on enthusiasm.

Where would you rather a tournament that has reached this size be located that's gonna get that same sort of pull?

I think we're all well aware of the reasons WAKA wants it in Vegas. It's not a competitive tourney, they just want to market it as one gigantic party (which it's really not), so those are the kind of teams they will attract. However, they simultaneously market it as the "world championships" and the end all be all of kickball, but the participants of it are mostly selected by random chance instead of by how good they actually are. It just further proves that the Founders Cup is the most over-rated, over-hyped tournament out there.

There are 2 types of teams going to this "world championship": Teams that want to play tournament kickball and party afterward, and teams that want to party and, if there's time, maybe kick a ball around a little, too. I guarantee you the majority of teams going fit in with the latter category, and many of them are in at the expense of teams in the former category. And even though most of the top teams somehow slipped into the tournament (again, mostly by random chance), Many of them won't see a quality opponent until single elimination, and some of them probably not until the 2nd round. Instead of being a great tournament, it's just a massively diluted one.

Isn't that just like the NCAA basketabll tournament? You don't see another really good team until the sweet 16? If you took the best 64 teams you would still have the early round games being largerly mismatches if the teams are ranked correctly.

[JellyDogg]

The short, short version:
(2) Make the tourney two tiers/skill levels (one open/competitive, one recreational)

That is the key. If they hold it in Vegas, they either have to separate it out, or they have to do a lot more work than their flawed ranking system that they currently use to calculate out the most deserving teams. Send out invitations to all qualifying teams, then select the participants based on the top 64 responders, not the first 64 to hit "submit."

[JellyDogg]

Isn't that just like the NCAA basketabll tournament? You don't see another really good team until the sweet 16? If you took the best 64 teams you would still have the early round games being largerly mismatches if the teams are ranked correctly.

The larger the field, the weaker the bottom teams are, that's just a fact. However, I doubt a top 10 team gets left out of the NCAA tourney because the 66th ranked team replied to the NCAA Commissioner's email first.

[mozbot]

I think we're all well aware of the reasons WAKA wants it in Vegas. It's not a competitive tourney, they just want to market it as one gigantic party (which it's really not), so those are the kind of teams they will attract. However, they simultaneously market it as the "world championships" and the end all be all of kickball, but the participants of it are mostly selected by random chance instead of by how good they actually are. It just further proves that the Founders Cup is the most over-rated, over-hyped tournament out there.

There are 2 types of teams going to this "world championship": Teams that want to play tournament kickball and party afterward, and teams that want to party and, if there's time, maybe kick a ball around a little, too. I guarantee you the majority of teams going fit in with the latter category, and many of them are in at the expense of teams in the former category. And even though most of the top teams somehow slipped into the tournament (again, mostly by random chance), Many of them won't see a quality opponent until single elimination, and some of them probably not until the 2nd round. Instead of being a great tournament, it's just a massively diluted one.

So your option is to play, what is basically, a regional tournament amongst teams you've already pre-determined to be "world championship caliber" in a smaller tournament over finding out, yes, through a series of games that may not be AS tough as what you'd get to in the elimination rounds, who is actually the best team in the nation?

I understand the frustration in many teams that are talked about as being great not getting a bid. I am friends with Max and a few others from Sofa King Good out of CA Hollywood and my heart goes out to them like you won't believe, at least for the moment. And until they kick my ass again. But it seems just slightly self serving and not representative of WAKA as a whole.

It’s true that WAKA has a dual personality with what they are trying to achieve. They push the competitive side with tournaments and all that. Then equally say "it’s just kickball" and laugh off any sense of seriousness. Which is disingenuous to both sides. But that’s the umbrella we’re playing under.

[Lost_Sage]

Well, not really. We actually do a wonderful job of mingling in NYC and are all pretty darn friendly with each other as between competitive teams and "fun" teams. It's more an expectations management for completely new teams or returning teams with a bunch of new people. I expect my captains to understand the system and do their own homework to prevent its side effects -- that is, if you really want someone on your team, have them sign up ASAP. With all the fair warning and expectations management I do, I have no sympathy for regulars who drag their feet, and I will place randoms who are more timely than them first.

Star is always close to capacity (which for 12 teams, is 312 people). We're usually in the very high 200s by opening day. Don't get me wrong, WAKA will fill us to 26 apiece if need be, but the majority of rosters top out at 18-22.

I'm guessing that you run into several of the issues that we have, which is that teams (competative, fun or however you wanna tag them) are constantly under the threat of having random players added to the teams to max out the roster and fill up spots. Obviously, we're getting off topic here a bit. But WAKA has a habit of looking out for number one over the customer. I play on one team that has 13 players and I get to field just about every inning and kick a few times. I also play on other teams that are maxed at 26. Very different feeling, obvioulsy. Though neither is necessarilly (sp?) better.

Do you have self-imposed team size limits in Star? Just curious.

[JellyDogg]

So your option is to play, what is basically, a regional tournament amongst teams you've already pre-determined to be "world championship caliber" in a smaller tournament over finding out, yes, through a series of games that may not be AS tough as what you'd get to in the elimination rounds, who is actually the best team in the nation?

I understand the frustration in many teams that are talked about as being great not getting a bid. I am friends with Max and a few others from Sofa King Good out of CA Hollywood and my heart goes out to them like you won't believe, at least for the moment. And until they kick my ass again. But it seems just slightly self serving and not representative of WAKA as a whole.

It’s true that WAKA has a dual personality with what they are trying to achieve. They push the competitive side with tournaments and all that. Then equally say "it’s just kickball" and laugh off any sense of seriousness. Which is disingenuous to both sides. But that’s the umbrella we’re playing under.

What I'm saying is mercy ruling a team 12-0 in the 2nd inning is not fun for the winning or losing team. If you're going to have a "championship," have the best teams out there you can get. If you're going to have a company picnic with drinks and games and merriment, then don't call it a "championship." Trying to claim it is both will leave everyone bitter.

[Dematas]

You all make some good point. I agree with a lot of things J-Dog said. My question is that I want to know how many teams would pay an entrance fee like every other tourney and how many teams actually think they have a chance of winning this tourney. I'm sure it's the same 10-15 teams that go to the other tourneys that are the ones that only have a chance with an exception of one or two teams. The other question is after their first tourney they pay an entry fee to and see what it is like, would they do it again? I'm thinking the answer is no and that would explain and eliminate all of the bs.

[Festa]

I agree with the identity problem that WAKA has. I'd say this needs its own topic, but we've hashed over this time and time again (annually )

WAKA needs to figure out if they want a "World Championship" or "The biggest kickball party out there!" They can't have both without pissing off a good portion of their players.

[Festa]

You all make some good point. I agree with a lot of things J-Dog said. My question is that I want to know how many teams would pay an entrance fee like every other tourney and how many teams actually think they have a chance of winning this tourney. I'm sure it's the same 10-15 teams that go to the other tourneys that are the ones that only have a chance with an exception of one or two teams. The other question is after their first tourney they pay an entry fee two and see what it is like, would they do it again. I'm thinking the answer is no and that would explain and eliminate all of the bs.

With an entrance fee are you still watering the playing field down to just competitive teams - or just the rich teams.

[Dematas]

You all make some good point. I agree with a lot of things J-Dog said. My question is that I want to know how many teams would pay an entrance fee like every other tourney and how many teams actually think they have a chance of winning this tourney. I'm sure it's the same 10-15 teams that go to the other tourneys that are the ones that only have a chance with an exception of one or two teams. The other question is after their first tourney they pay an entry fee two and see what it is like, would they do it again. I'm thinking the answer is no and that would explain and eliminate all of the bs.

With an entrance fee are you still watering the playing field down to just competitive teams - or just the rich teams.

That's the point, it's the world championship of kickball or at least that is what it is billed as. Like J-Dog said, the most overrated tourney in kickball.

[kim dude]

You all make some good point. I agree with a lot of things J-Dog said. My question is that I want to know how many teams would pay an entrance fee like every other tourney and how many teams actually think they have a chance of winning this tourney. I'm sure it's the same 10-15 teams that go to the other tourneys that are the ones that only have a chance with an exception of one or two teams. The other question is after their first tourney they pay an entry fee two and see what it is like, would they do it again. I'm thinking the answer is no and that would explain and eliminate all of the bs.

With an entrance fee are you still watering the playing field down to just competitive teams - or just the rich teams.

I don't think the entrance fee would deter the party teams. Figure a squad of 15 players and the $500 entry fee would only be $33 and change per player. I'm sure most teams that go do not expect to win it, it is an excuse to go to Vegas and do something ridiculous: play in a national kickball championship.

[Dematas]

You all make some good point. I agree with a lot of things J-Dog said. My question is that I want to know how many teams would pay an entrance fee like every other tourney and how many teams actually think they have a chance of winning this tourney. I'm sure it's the same 10-15 teams that go to the other tourneys that are the ones that only have a chance with an exception of one or two teams. The other question is after their first tourney they pay an entry fee two and see what it is like, would they do it again. I'm thinking the answer is no and that would explain and eliminate all of the bs.

With an entrance fee are you still watering the playing field down to just competitive teams - or just the rich teams.

I don't think the entrance fee would deter the party teams. Figure a squad of 15 players and the $500 entry fee would only be $33 and change per player. I'm sure most teams that go do not expect to win it, it is an excuse to go to Vegas and do something ridiculous: play in a national kickball championship.

I beleive it would deter a lot of teams, maybe not at first, but it would eventually.

[kim dude]

You all make some good point. I agree with a lot of things J-Dog said. My question is that I want to know how many teams would pay an entrance fee like every other tourney and how many teams actually think they have a chance of winning this tourney. I'm sure it's the same 10-15 teams that go to the other tourneys that are the ones that only have a chance with an exception of one or two teams. The other question is after their first tourney they pay an entry fee two and see what it is like, would they do it again. I'm thinking the answer is no and that would explain and eliminate all of the bs.

With an entrance fee are you still watering the playing field down to just competitive teams - or just the rich teams.

I don't think the entrance fee would deter the party teams. Figure a squad of 15 players and the $500 entry fee would only be $33 and change per player. I'm sure most teams that go do not expect to win it, it is an excuse to go to Vegas and do something ridiculous: play in a national kickball championship.

I beleive it would deter a lot of teams, maybe not at first, but it would eventually.

If it's in Vegas it will not deter them. That is the draw, it is an excuse to go to Vegas with all your kickball friends. Whether or not WAKA actually throws the words biggest kickball party really doesn't matter, you have an excuse to go and make your own party. There's a reason I'm going to ref there and it's not the 150 bucks I'm getting paid, it's the whole package (Vegas+kickball+friends=awesome time).

[Dematas]

You all make some good point. I agree with a lot of things J-Dog said. My question is that I want to know how many teams would pay an entrance fee like every other tourney and how many teams actually think they have a chance of winning this tourney. I'm sure it's the same 10-15 teams that go to the other tourneys that are the ones that only have a chance with an exception of one or two teams. The other question is after their first tourney they pay an entry fee two and see what it is like, would they do it again. I'm thinking the answer is no and that would explain and eliminate all of the bs.

With an entrance fee are you still watering the playing field down to just competitive teams - or just the rich teams.

I don't think the entrance fee would deter the party teams. Figure a squad of 15 players and the $500 entry fee would only be $33 and change per player. I'm sure most teams that go do not expect to win it, it is an excuse to go to Vegas and do something ridiculous: play in a national kickball championship.

I beleive it would deter a lot of teams, maybe not at first, but it would eventually.

If it's in Vegas it will not deter them. That is the draw, it is an excuse to go to Vegas with all your kickball friends. Whether or not WAKA actually throws the words biggest kickball party really doesn't matter, you have an excuse to go and make your own party. There's a reason I'm going to ref there and it's not the 150 bucks I'm getting paid, it's the whole package (Vegas+kickball+friends=awesome time).

If that is the case, they should charge an entry fee and have a cash payout like the rest of the tourneys.

[Typod]

Or they could hold it somewhere that isn't Vegas, which would eliminate most of the crappy teams that fill up this tournament.

I take offense to this quite a bit. As someone who captains a "crappy" team. We've played together for 10 seasons, never kicked someone off for not being good, nor recruited anyone for any reason other than the fact we like to have a good time together, never tried to build an unbeatable team or any of that crap, we play a huge roster and have a blast. Playing in regionals years ago made us WAY better. Playing in Vegas made us again WAY better, just getting new ideas and seeing how to step up our game. I think it is an important part of everyone getting better.

On the flip side, we had a blast, won a couple games, then got murdered by Young Guns, but we made a ton of new friends, including some who have traveled to come stay in our home and enjoy LA with us, as well as made enough friends to organize a kickball/booze fest in Phoenix which drew about 60 people from California Arizona and New Mexico to just come put a keg on the field and play kickball all day and party all weekend.

Just cause a team is crappy doesnt mean they should be completely excluded, as there is more to be gained than just winning games.

[Jared It Up!]

Or they could hold it somewhere that isn't Vegas, which would eliminate most of the crappy teams that fill up this tournament.

I take offense to this quite a bit. As someone who captains a "crappy" team. We've played together for 10 seasons, never kicked someone off for not being good, nor recruited anyone for any reason other than the fact we like to have a good time together, never tried to build an unbeatable team or any of that crap, we play a huge roster and have a blast. Playing in regionals years ago made us WAY better. Playing in Vegas made us again WAY better, just getting new ideas and seeing how to step up our game. I think it is an important part of everyone getting better.

On the flip side, we had a blast, won a couple games, then got murdered by Young Guns, but we made a ton of new friends, including some who have traveled to come stay in our home and enjoy LA with us, as well as made enough friends to organize a kickball/booze fest in Phoenix which drew about 60 people from California Arizona and New Mexico to just come put a keg on the field and play kickball all day and party all weekend.

Just cause a team is crappy doesnt mean they should be completely excluded, as there is more to be gained than just winning games.

you guys were even on the best damn sports show!

[Typod]

....which has since been cancelled. We ruin everything!!

[JellyDogg]

Just cause a team is crappy doesnt mean they should be completely excluded, as there is more to be gained than just winning games.

That is the perfect description of what every "world championship" should be.

[Typod]

Just cause a team is crappy doesnt mean they should be completely excluded, as there is more to be gained than just winning games.

That is the perfect description of what every "world championship" should be.

It's the perfect description of how the "world championships" of a coed game generally reserved for 4th graders, played by adults with bar logos on their shirts should be IMO.

[*Angel*]

Just cause a team is crappy doesnt mean they should be completely excluded, as there is more to be gained than just winning games.

That is the perfect description of what every "world championship" should be.

He didn't say they deserved to win, simply that they deserved to be included.

[Typod]

Just cause a team is crappy doesnt mean they should be completely excluded, as there is more to be gained than just winning games.

That is the perfect description of what every "world championship" should be.

He didn't say they deserved to win, simply that they deserved to be included.

Exactly, i respect the shit out of those good teams, but i think it is a good thing for them to beat up on some new crappy teams, so those teams can see what the best look like and try to do what they do.

[Lost_Sage]

Which is exactly what happened with DWAKP 06 in Miami (also-ran) versus 07 in Boston (champs).

Exactly, i respect the shit out of those good teams, but i think it is a good thing for them to beat up on some new crappy teams, so those teams can see what the best look like and try to do what they do.

[Zak]

It sucks telling a team that was the first undefeated team in division history that they can't go to Vegas cause their captain didn't sign up fast enough. The team put in a lot of work over the past 3 years to be the top team in the state but still ended up on the waitlist. It's not good for kickball to tell teams that put in the effort to be better teams that they don't get a shot to see how they stack up with the rest of the county while there is going to be teams in Vegas that complain about bunting and sidearm pitching.

[Festa]

Maybe have 2 concurrent tournaments. One tournament for the division champs and one for everyone else.

If WAKA wants a competitive tournament AND a party - that's the way to do it.

[Typod]

Agreed.


Maybe the final 8 of the non-competive get thrown in as wild cards into the big boys game? Create a little incentive to still try to win the non-competitve games?

[Zak]

Maybe have 2 concurrent tournaments. One tournament for the division champs and one for everyone else.

If WAKA wants a competitive tournament AND a party - that's the way to do it.

You do realize if this was done that Frosty Balls would be in the "fun" tournament right?

[JellyDogg]

Just cause a team is crappy doesnt mean they should be completely excluded, as there is more to be gained than just winning games.

That is the perfect description of what every "world championship" should be.

He didn't say they deserved to win, simply that they deserved to be included.

And I am disagreeing with him...

The comment he made above is the antithesis of what a "championship" is. I'm sure the KC Royals think making the playoffs would be fun and they'd make new friends, so on and so forth, but they suck, and because they suck they don't get to play for the "championship." The whole point of having a championship is to take the best teams, put them together and see who wins. Winning is central to what a championship is.

I don't have anything against the Valley Girls or whoever else for wanting to play in the tournament, or for taking advantage of the opportunity to play in it. My problem is with WAKA. As I've said at several times in this thread and others, if it's going to be a true championship tournament, then the best teams should get priority. If it's going to be a frat party, then don't arrogantly claim that it is a "world championship" tournament. Either divide the two, or pick a lane and go with it.

[Festa]

Maybe have 2 concurrent tournaments. One tournament for the division champs and one for everyone else.

If WAKA wants a competitive tournament AND a party - that's the way to do it.

You do realize if this was done that Frosty Balls would be in the "fun" tournament right?

Same with Ballers and Shot Callers.

You're right. I hate my own idea.

I don't think we should be encouraging competitive teams finding a social division to raid. There should be regionals... and the top half of the division should be invited. This would allow the power-divisions to give all of their competitive teams a chance... hell - open the regional tournaments to everyone. Who's to say that the worst team in VA Shore can't beat up on a above-average Richmond team (sorry.. I picked 2 locations at random.. didn't mean to pick on Richmond)

[*Angel*]

Just cause a team is crappy doesnt mean they should be completely excluded, as there is more to be gained than just winning games.

That is the perfect description of what every "world championship" should be.

He didn't say they deserved to win, simply that they deserved to be included.

And I am disagreeing with him...

The comment he made above is the antithesis of what a "championship" is. I'm sure the KC Royals think making the playoffs would be fun and they'd make new friends, so on and so forth, but they suck, and because they suck they don't get to play for the "championship." The whole point of having a championship is to take the best teams, put them together and see who wins. Winning is central to what a championship is.

I don't have anything against the Valley Girls or whoever else for wanting to play in the tournament, or for taking advantage of the opportunity to play in it. My problem is with WAKA. As I've said at several times in this thread and others, if it's going to be a true championship tournament, then the best teams should get priority. If it's going to be a frat party, then don't arrogantly claim that it is a "world championship" tournament. Either divide the two, or pick a lane and go with it.

I totally see what you are saying, but at the same time it's not like the teams with bids partied their way to the bid. They won their bid by winning. Maybe they won by beating teams not as good as the teams other folks had to beat to get their bid, but they WON their bid through w's all the same.

And I absolutely agree that WAKA is playing both sides of the fence on this one. But as long as everyone continues to give them their money and play by their rules, why should they feel compelled to change any of it?

[Typod]

Just cause a team is crappy doesnt mean they should be completely excluded, as there is more to be gained than just winning games.

That is the perfect description of what every "world championship" should be.

He didn't say they deserved to win, simply that they deserved to be included.

And I am disagreeing with him...

The comment he made above is the antithesis of what a "championship" is. I'm sure the KC Royals think making the playoffs would be fun and they'd make new friends, so on and so forth, but they suck, and because they suck they don't get to play for the "championship." The whole point of having a championship is to take the best teams, put them together and see who wins. Winning is central to what a championship is.

I don't have anything against the Valley Girls or whoever else for wanting to play in the tournament, or for taking advantage of the opportunity to play in it. My problem is with WAKA. As I've said at several times in this thread and others, if it's going to be a true championship tournament, then the best teams should get priority. If it's going to be a frat party, then don't arrogantly claim that it is a "world championship" tournament. Either divide the two, or pick a lane and go with it.

I think you and I are actually on the same page for the most part. Ive been saying all week they should restructure the entry to ensure the top tier teams get in, Im just also a huge fan of unproven teams playing way better teams as it helps progress the whole thing. Making new friends is fun too. If you want to talk Baseball dont forget the Tampa Bay Rays and The Rockies getting themselves to the world series recently, both of which would certainly fall into the crappy category before their breakout seasons.

[JellyDogg]

And I absolutely agree that WAKA is playing both sides of the fence on this one. But as long as everyone continues to give them their money and play by their rules, why should they feel compelled to change any of it?

And there you have it in a nutshell. I have a feeling that if they keep playing both sides, people will stop giving them their money.

[*Angel*]

And I absolutely agree that WAKA is playing both sides of the fence on this one. But as long as everyone continues to give them their money and play by their rules, why should they feel compelled to change any of it?

And there you have it in a nutshell. I have a feeling that if they keep playing both sides, people will stop giving them their money.

JellyFig, I will meet you at the crossroads.

[JellyDogg]

I think you and I are actually on the same page for the most part. Ive been saying all week they should restructure the entry to ensure the top tier teams get in, Im just also a huge fan of unproven teams playing way better teams as it helps progress the whole thing. Making new friends is fun too. If you want to talk Baseball dont forget the Tampa Bay Rays and The Rockies getting themselves to the world series recently, both of which would certainly fall into the crappy category before their breakout seasons.

True, but the Rays and Rockies had to have break out seasons first, then they got the chance to play for all the marbles.