What can we do to change the injury rule?

[JohnPWilks]

We've all seen it happen. It's sometime known as the Riff Raff play. A guy/girl fakes an injury in a close game, so that the team can get a faster runner on base in hopes of winning. Even the question about the validity of the Littletoe's injury in the Fully Loaded v. New York Shower Hammers game from the VBKO this past weekend makes me wonder, what can we do to prevent teams from "faking injuries" so get a faster runner or skip over someone to get to the next person in the lineup?

Now I'm not saying Shane was injured or not, but since it was accused of being a Bush League play, I want to know what people think. Should...

The player done for the game?
We go with the if you can walk, you can play mentality?
We go with a new set of lineup restriction, where every player in the game matters?
We leave it as it is and just deal with some team's shady moves?

[Dematas]

We've all seen it happen. It's sometime known as the Riff Raff play. A guy/girl fakes an injury in a close game, so that the team can get a faster runner on base in hopes of winning. Even the question about the validity of the Littletoe's injury in the Fully Loaded v. New York Shower Hammers game from the VBKO this past weekend makes me wonder, what can we do to prevent teams from "faking injuries" so get a faster runner or skip over someone to get to the next person in the lineup?

Now I'm not saying Shane was injured or not, but since it was accused of being a Bush League play, I want to know what people think. Should...

The player done for the game?
We go with the if you can walk, you can play mentality?
We go with a new set of lineup restriction, where every player in the game matters?
We leave it as it is and just deal with some team's shady moves?

Player should be done for the game and the replacement runner should be the last out.

[JellyDogg]

Simplest thing would be to let the opposing team choose your pinch runner (same sex, of course), and that player be done for the game.

[THE LARGER TWIN]

We've all seen it happen. It's sometime known as the Riff Raff play. A guy/girl fakes an injury in a close game, so that the team can get a faster runner on base in hopes of winning. Even the question about the validity of the Littletoe's injury in the Fully Loaded v. New York Shower Hammers game from the VBKO this past weekend makes me wonder, what can we do to prevent teams from "faking injuries" so get a faster runner or skip over someone to get to the next person in the lineup?

Now I'm not saying Shane was injured or not, but since it was accused of being a Bush League play, I want to know what people think. Should...

The player done for the game?
We go with the if you can walk, you can play mentality?
We go with a new set of lineup restriction, where every player in the game matters?
We leave it as it is and just deal with some team's shady moves?

Player should be done for the game and the replacement runner should be the last out.

I agree. Except, it should be the last same sex out. We have the same sort of rule in Ultra: player is done for the game, but any runner of the same sex can take their place on the bases

[MEATBALLKEVIN]

But what if the girl is injured and you only have 4 in the line up? thats the real question

[antw00]

But what if the girl is injured and you only have 4 in the line up? thats the real question

This is the big question: forfeit or allow an off the bench player. As far as injury goes, the head ref can determine that. He's makes subjective calls on everything else, so he can determine if someone is faking or not

[MEATBALLKEVIN]

But what if the girl is injured and you only have 4 in the line up? thats the real question

This is the big question: forfeit or allow an off the bench player. As far as injury goes, the head ref can determine that. He's makes subjective calls on everything else, so he can determine if someone is faking or not

sub off the bench

[FlyingV]

But what if the girl is injured and you only have 4 in the line up? thats the real question

This is the big question: forfeit or allow an off the bench player. As far as injury goes, the head ref can determine that. He's makes subjective calls on everything else, so he can determine if someone is faking or not

sub off the bench

I don't see that being a problem with the girls. If you're only playing with 4 then the girl that's on the bench obviously isn't one of your top 4... unless you're using some crazy strategy that I don't know about.

Clarification: Obviously if you brought 5 girls you're probably rotating and only playing 4 each game so technically the one on the bench could be better, but marginally. I honestly don't think allowing a girl to sub in would/could be used in an advantageous way. The underlying issue would be where do you insert her in the lineup?

[MEATBALLKEVIN]

But what if the girl is injured and you only have 4 in the line up? thats the real question

This is the big question: forfeit or allow an off the bench player. As far as injury goes, the head ref can determine that. He's makes subjective calls on everything else, so he can determine if someone is faking or not

sub off the bench

I don't see that being a problem with the girls. If you're only playing with 4 then the girl that's on the bench obviously isn't one of your top 4... unless you're using some crazy strategy that I don't know about.

Clarification: Obviously if you brought 5 girls you're probably rotating and only playing 4 each game so technically the one on the bench could be better, but marginally. I honestly don't think allowing a girl to sub in would/could be used in an advantageous way. The underlying issue would be where do you insert her in the lineup?

I dont think any team would sub her in for strategy. I think this should be allowed if 1 was to legit get hurt so you didnt have to forfeit the game. She should be inserted in the exact spot of the injured player.

But it would be cool if you could sub in players from the bench like pinch hitters.

[JohnPWilks]

But what if the girl is injured and you only have 4 in the line up? thats the real question

This is the big question: forfeit or allow an off the bench player. As far as injury goes, the head ref can determine that. He's makes subjective calls on everything else, so he can determine if someone is faking or not

sub off the bench

I don't see that being a problem with the girls. If you're only playing with 4 then the girl that's on the bench obviously isn't one of your top 4... unless you're using some crazy strategy that I don't know about.

Clarification: Obviously if you brought 5 girls you're probably rotating and only playing 4 each game so technically the one on the bench could be better, but marginally. I honestly don't think allowing a girl to sub in would/could be used in an advantageous way. The underlying issue would be where do you insert her in the lineup?

I dont think any team would sub her in for strategy. I think this should be allowed if 1 was to legit get hurt so you didnt have to forfeit the game. She should be inserted in the exact spot of the injured player.

But it would be cool if you could sub in players from the bench like pinch hitters.

I think that as the game get more competitive, the look and feel of the game will turn into a game similar to baseball with kicking roster limitations, with substitutions and pinch kickers / runners, defensive substitutions, etc.

[The Slam]

We've all seen it happen. It's sometime known as the Riff Raff play. A guy/girl fakes an injury in a close game, so that the team can get a faster runner on base in hopes of winning. Even the question about the validity of the Littletoe's injury in the Fully Loaded v. New York Shower Hammers game from the VBKO this past weekend makes me wonder, what can we do to prevent teams from "faking injuries" so get a faster runner or skip over someone to get to the next person in the lineup?

Now I'm not saying Shane was injured or not, but since it was accused of being a Bush League play, I want to know what people think. Should...

The player done for the game?
We go with the if you can walk, you can play mentality?
We go with a new set of lineup restriction, where every player in the game matters?
We leave it as it is and just deal with some team's shady moves?

Player should be done for the game and the replacement runner should be the last out.

This.

[JohnnyBlaze]

Simplest thing would be to let the opposing team choose your pinch runner (same sex, of course), and that player be done for the game.

This is the only way to remove any competitive advantage.

[xxxjboyxxx]

But what if the girl is injured and you only have 4 in the line up? thats the real question

This is the big question: forfeit or allow an off the bench player. As far as injury goes, the head ref can determine that. He's makes subjective calls on everything else, so he can determine if someone is faking or not

sub off the bench

I don't see that being a problem with the girls. If you're only playing with 4 then the girl that's on the bench obviously isn't one of your top 4... unless you're using some crazy strategy that I don't know about.

Clarification: Obviously if you brought 5 girls you're probably rotating and only playing 4 each game so technically the one on the bench could be better, but marginally. I honestly don't think allowing a girl to sub in would/could be used in an advantageous way. The underlying issue would be where do you insert her in the lineup?

I dont think any team would sub her in for strategy. I think this should be allowed if 1 was to legit get hurt so you didnt have to forfeit the game. She should be inserted in the exact spot of the injured player.

But it would be cool if you could sub in players from the bench like pinch hitters.

I like this concept....every pro sports has subs on the bench that are inserted sometime during the game.

[MEATBALLKEVIN]

It would just suck to be done for the day if a girl got seriously injured and you were only playing 4. I dont see why its an issue to bring in a bench player. Its an issue for Waka but it should be a no brainer for the circuit to allow it.

[kim dude]

I'd go with the replacement runner being the last person of that gender to get out. I don't think you necessarily have to bench someone who gets replaced running. Its not uncommon to turn an ankle that prevents you from running for a few minutes or from cramping up but being able to work the cramp out. Do it twice and you're gone though. I would also say that that allowing a team one substitution from the bench during a game would be okay but they would have to be added at the end of the order.

[MEATBALLKEVIN]

I'd go with the replacement runner being the last person of that gender to get out. I don't think you necessarily have to bench someone who gets replaced running. Its not uncommon to turn an ankle that prevents you from running for a few minutes or from cramping up but being able to work the cramp out. Do it twice and you're gone though. I would also say that that allowing a team one substitution from the bench during a game would be okay but they would have to be added at the end of the order.

But what if the girl is hurt badly? Do you think that a bench player should be able to take her spot in the line up to continue the game?

[machinegunkelly]

i say to solve all this....u make a lineup for the game.....u can sub people but they can not re enter the game....if someone gets hurt and they need to be replaced they cannot re enter the game....that simple

[kim dude]

I'd go with the replacement runner being the last person of that gender to get out. I don't think you necessarily have to bench someone who gets replaced running. Its not uncommon to turn an ankle that prevents you from running for a few minutes or from cramping up but being able to work the cramp out. Do it twice and you're gone though. I would also say that that allowing a team one substitution from the bench during a game would be okay but they would have to be added at the end of the order.

But what if the girl is hurt badly? Do you think that a bench player should be able to take her spot in the line up to continue the game?

i think she should be able to be replaced and the replacement added to end of the kicking order. the last girl to get out would run for her.

[JellyDogg]

i think she should be able to be replaced and the replacement added to end of the kicking order. the last girl to get out would run for her.

I really don't like this. Too easy to manipulate. Girl in the middle of the lineup gets "hurt" on defense (but is supposed to lead off the next inning). Sub comes in and gets put at the bottom of the lineup while the next person in line (a guy) leads off the next inning.

[Jared It Up!]

I'd go with the replacement runner being the last person of that gender to get out. I don't think you necessarily have to bench someone who gets replaced running. Its not uncommon to turn an ankle that prevents you from running for a few minutes or from cramping up but being able to work the cramp out. Do it twice and you're gone though. I would also say that that allowing a team one substitution from the bench during a game would be okay but they would have to be added at the end of the order.

how many times in a game does someone get up? Max of 3 times. Once you are hurt, you should sit the rest of the game.

[Kickbot]

I'd go with the replacement runner being the last person of that gender to get out. I don't think you necessarily have to bench someone who gets replaced running. Its not uncommon to turn an ankle that prevents you from running for a few minutes or from cramping up but being able to work the cramp out. Do it twice and you're gone though. I would also say that that allowing a team one substitution from the bench during a game would be okay but they would have to be added at the end of the order.

how many times in a game does someone get up? Max of 3 times. Once you are hurt, you should sit the rest of the game.

I don't think so. The heat cramps are a regular thing and it really doesn't make sense to make someone sit the game is they can recover. For example, Jhard had to come off the base path with cramps in one of our games, but was able to return later. If he were forced to sit after coming off by rule, it would caused all kinds of unnecessary problems.

[Jared It Up!]

I'd go with the replacement runner being the last person of that gender to get out. I don't think you necessarily have to bench someone who gets replaced running. Its not uncommon to turn an ankle that prevents you from running for a few minutes or from cramping up but being able to work the cramp out. Do it twice and you're gone though. I would also say that that allowing a team one substitution from the bench during a game would be okay but they would have to be added at the end of the order.

how many times in a game does someone get up? Max of 3 times. Once you are hurt, you should sit the rest of the game.

I don't think so. The heat cramps are a regular thing and it really doesn't make sense to make someone sit the game is they can recover. For example, Jhard had to come off the base path with cramps in one of our games, but was able to return later. If he were forced to sit after coming off by rule, it would caused all kinds of unnecessary problems.

I know that there are some legitimate injuries where they can come back from. In baseball, even if it is just a cramp, they are still out for the rest of the game. I am not saying to allow subs, but by making someone sit the whole game, then it will deter people from faking injuries. It may not, because most of the fake injuries happen later in the game and they can always replace that guy in the field.

[Kickbot]

I don't think so. The heat cramps are a regular thing and it really doesn't make sense to make someone sit the game is they can recover. For example, Jhard had to come off the base path with cramps in one of our games, but was able to return later. If he were forced to sit after coming off by rule, it would caused all kinds of unnecessary problems.

I know that there are some legitimate injuries where they can come back from. In baseball, even if it is just a cramp, they are still out for the rest of the game. I am not saying to allow subs, but by making someone sit the whole game, then it will deter people from faking injuries. It may not, because most of the fake injuries happen later in the game and they can always replace that guy in the field.

I guess my point is that in that case we would have done anything in our power to avoid losing jhard for the rest of the game, including but not limited to, delaying as long as possible. It would have been a huge pain in the ass for everyone and not worth the small benefit of preventing some allegedly faked injuries.

[MEATBALLKEVIN]

There are so many ways and scenarios to look at this.

What am basically saying is that if you are only playing 4 girls and 1 gets hurt then she should be allowed to be taken out of the game having a girl from the bench play in her exact spot in the batting order for the rest of the game to avoid forfiet.

[antw00]

There are so many ways and scenarios to look at this.

What am basically saying is that if you are only playing 4 girls and 1 gets hurt then she should be allowed to be taken out of the game having a girl from the bench play in her exact spot in the batting order for the rest of the game to avoid forfiet.

I agree with this. Teams travel a long way and shouldn't forfeit the game due to a injured player. I think the girl should kick in the same position as where the injured girl was kicking, not bottom of the lineup. Let's say the injured girl was kicking 3rd. Sub girl should kick third. If not, then the cleanup bumps to 3rd, 5th to 4th, etc. It changes the whole lineup.

[kim dude]

There are so many ways and scenarios to look at this.

What am basically saying is that if you are only playing 4 girls and 1 gets hurt then she should be allowed to be taken out of the game having a girl from the bench play in her exact spot in the batting order for the rest of the game to avoid forfiet.

I agree with this. Teams travel a long way and shouldn't forfeit the game due to a injured player. I think the girl should kick in the same position as where the injured girl was kicking, not bottom of the lineup. Let's say the injured girl was kicking 3rd. Sub girl should kick third. If not, then the cleanup bumps to 3rd, 5th to 4th, etc. It changes the whole lineup.

While I agree that it will mess up your lineup it will also minimize the potential for faking an injury to sub someone in intentionally. I'm thinking about how it applies to the guys more specifically. You shouldn't be able to get away without some sort of small disadvantage when you consciously decide to only field 4 girls, at least you're still playing.

[antw00]

I gotcha Kim. That's why it's up to the ref's discretion ito determine if the player is injured or faking.

[Kickbot]

I don't think we should go out of our way to build the rules around preventing teams from faking injuries. I just don't see it being that big of a problem. Call them jerks on the MB, boo them from the sidelines and let's all get on with our lives.

[MEATBALLKEVIN]

There are so many ways and scenarios to look at this.

What am basically saying is that if you are only playing 4 girls and 1 gets hurt then she should be allowed to be taken out of the game having a girl from the bench play in her exact spot in the batting order for the rest of the game to avoid forfiet.

I agree with this. Teams travel a long way and shouldn't forfeit the game due to a injured player. I think the girl should kick in the same position as where the injured girl was kicking, not bottom of the lineup. Let's say the injured girl was kicking 3rd. Sub girl should kick third. If not, then the cleanup bumps to 3rd, 5th to 4th, etc. It changes the whole lineup.

While I agree that it will mess up your lineup it will also minimize the potential for faking an injury to sub someone in intentionally. I'm thinking about how it applies to the guys more specifically. You shouldn't be able to get away without some sort of small disadvantage when you consciously decide to only field 4 girls, at least you're still playing.

well if a guy gets hurt that team wont forfeiit anyway. They will 100% still have enough guys on the field to be legal

I personally would never want to see a team forfiet because 1 of 4 girls playing was injured. And I would let that team take a player off the bench and look the other way in a hear beat.I am talking about a serious injury here that may put her out for the day. Not a cramp.

[JohnPWilks]

I don't think so. The heat cramps are a regular thing and it really doesn't make sense to make someone sit the game is they can recover. For example, Jhard had to come off the base path with cramps in one of our games, but was able to return later. If he were forced to sit after coming off by rule, it would caused all kinds of unnecessary problems.

I know that there are some legitimate injuries where they can come back from. In baseball, even if it is just a cramp, they are still out for the rest of the game. I am not saying to allow subs, but by making someone sit the whole game, then it will deter people from faking injuries. It may not, because most of the fake injuries happen later in the game and they can always replace that guy in the field.

I guess my point is that in that case we would have done anything in our power to avoid losing jhard for the rest of the game, including but not limited to, delaying as long as possible. It would have been a huge pain in the ass for everyone and not worth the small benefit of preventing some allegedly faked injuries.

That's why I say we have the 12 kicker rules. In the JHard situation, I would of given him 10-15 minutes to see if he could continue. This should be plenty of time to loosen up a cramp. If he needed extra time, he could of been replaced defensively, but stayed in the game offensively. I would not do the same offensively, since there have been so many "Riff Raff" instances where injuries are faked to get a faster advantage on offense. So here's my early solution by having 10-Fielders / 12 Kickers, until we get this thing completely competitive:

Players can come and go defensively, but only can be replaced once per inning. This allows captains to give each player defensive time. On offense you can be replaced only once, and that person can not be playing in the game already. So if you are pinch ran for or pinch kicked for, that person replaces you in the lineup at the spot you were replaced. This allows for more strategic move than just saying oh look my guy/girl who is an on base machine, but is slow as molasses, has a cramp, let me replace him/her with my fastest runner. And then find out that slow guy/girl made a miraculous recovery on the sidelines.

[kim dude]

I don't think so. The heat cramps are a regular thing and it really doesn't make sense to make someone sit the game is they can recover. For example, Jhard had to come off the base path with cramps in one of our games, but was able to return later. If he were forced to sit after coming off by rule, it would caused all kinds of unnecessary problems.

I know that there are some legitimate injuries where they can come back from. In baseball, even if it is just a cramp, they are still out for the rest of the game. I am not saying to allow subs, but by making someone sit the whole game, then it will deter people from faking injuries. It may not, because most of the fake injuries happen later in the game and they can always replace that guy in the field.

I guess my point is that in that case we would have done anything in our power to avoid losing jhard for the rest of the game, including but not limited to, delaying as long as possible. It would have been a huge pain in the ass for everyone and not worth the small benefit of preventing some allegedly faked injuries.

That's why I say we have the 12 kicker rules. In the JHard situation, I would of given him 10-15 minutes to see if he could continue. This should be plenty of time to loosen up a cramp. If he needed extra time, he could of been replaced defensively, but stayed in the game offensively. I would not do the same offensively, since there have been so many "Riff Raff" instances where injuries are faked to get a faster advantage on offense. So here's my early solution by having 10-Fielders / 12 Kickers, until we get this thing completely competitive:

Players can come and go defensively, but only can be replaced once per inning. This allows captains to give each player defensive time. On offense you can be replaced only once, and that person can not be playing in the game already. So if you are pinch ran for or pinch kicked for, that person replaces you in the lineup at the spot you were replaced. This allows for more strategic move than just saying oh look my guy/girl who is an on base machine, but is slow as molasses, has a cramp, let me replace him/her with my fastest runner. And then find out that slow guy/girl made a miraculous recovery on the sidelines.

That takes out teams that want to kick their entire lineup.

[Zak]

Allow the team to finish out the game with only 3 girls (limit to 9 fielders, automatic out in her spot in the line up). Still ends up with a less than favorable result for playing short a girl, but they don't risk having the day ended cause of a forfeit.

[MEATBALLKEVIN]

Allow the team to finish out the game with only 3 girls (limit to 9 fielders, automatic out in her spot in the line up). Still ends up with a less than favorable result for playing short a girl, but they don't risk having the day ended cause of a forfeit.

that is really not a bad idea.

If you play 4 females and 1 gets hurt then for the rest of that game you are short 1 fielder and every time she is up it will be an out. But at the same time im all for bench players

[2_easy]

I know everyone is so opposed to make this like softball/baseball; however, no matter how we look at it, our sport is so similar we can't avoid it. Therefore, why don't we utilize rules that have been revised for decades to prevent these situations.

Option 1 - Allow pinch running. Maybe only 1 pinch runner per game (could make it 1 per sex). Allow 1 substitution per game (could make it 1 per sex). Once a player is subbed, then they can't re-enter that game. Note: a pinch runner is either the last out or last person to score of the same sex (RON), which ever comes first. If a pinch runner is taken from someone on the bench (not in the game) that team has used their only pinch runner and substitution. If a team has already used the pinch runner and the injured player can not continue and has reached base safetly, then an out will be recorded and the team may replace the player with their substitute (if not used already). If team has already used both pinch runner and substitute, an out will be recorded for that play and the next time that kicker is up. Note: If this makes a team fall short on a legal team, team forfeits.

This will give everyone the opportunity to take advantage and will force teams to manage sparingly.

[PittsBurgheR]

Allow the team to finish out the game with only 3 girls (limit to 9 fielders, automatic out in her spot in the line up). Still ends up with a less than favorable result for playing short a girl, but they don't risk having the day ended cause of a forfeit.

that is really not a bad idea.

If you play 4 females and 1 gets hurt then for the rest of that game you are short 1 fielder and every time she is up it will be an out. But at the same time im all for bench players

I dont hate either of these ideas. The bench could be good as long as it's controlled well. What if we could set a limit on bench size?

[MEATBALLKEVIN]

Allow the team to finish out the game with only 3 girls (limit to 9 fielders, automatic out in her spot in the line up). Still ends up with a less than favorable result for playing short a girl, but they don't risk having the day ended cause of a forfeit.

that is really not a bad idea.

If you play 4 females and 1 gets hurt then for the rest of that game you are short 1 fielder and every time she is up it will be an out. But at the same time im all for bench players

I dont hate either of these ideas. The bench could be good as long as it's controlled well. What if we could set a limit on bench size?

Well i dont think bench size matters. I think the # of times you can sub does. Like 2easy said,maybe 1 of each sex per game.

[PittsBurgheR]

Allow the team to finish out the game with only 3 girls (limit to 9 fielders, automatic out in her spot in the line up). Still ends up with a less than favorable result for playing short a girl, but they don't risk having the day ended cause of a forfeit.

that is really not a bad idea.

If you play 4 females and 1 gets hurt then for the rest of that game you are short 1 fielder and every time she is up it will be an out. But at the same time im all for bench players

I dont hate either of these ideas. The bench could be good as long as it's controlled well. What if we could set a limit on bench size?

Well i dont think bench size matters. I think the # of times you can sub does. Like 2easy said,maybe 1 of each sex per game.

I agree the # of times you can sub a player does, but I also believe, you shouldn't be able to have a bench of 10 people.

[2_easy]

Well i dont think bench size matters. I think the # of times you can sub does. Like 2easy said,maybe 1 of each sex per game.

This way it gives the team the opportunity to not forfeit the game or not force an injured player to play, if they manage their game right. If they manage it wrong, then that falls on them.

[2_easy]

Allow the team to finish out the game with only 3 girls (limit to 9 fielders, automatic out in her spot in the line up). Still ends up with a less than favorable result for playing short a girl, but they don't risk having the day ended cause of a forfeit.

that is really not a bad idea.

If you play 4 females and 1 gets hurt then for the rest of that game you are short 1 fielder and every time she is up it will be an out. But at the same time im all for bench players

I dont hate either of these ideas. The bench could be good as long as it's controlled well. What if we could set a limit on bench size?

Well i dont think bench size matters. I think the # of times you can sub does. Like 2easy said,maybe 1 of each sex per game.

I agree the # of times you can sub a player does, but I also believe, you shouldn't be able to have a bench of 10 people.

During a game it won't matter, since you can only use 1 of each sex of those players. A total of 2. The bench size only comes into play with keeping players fresh throughout the tourney.

Do I like the fact that you have a limit on your tourney roster. Lets say 16 players on a team. Hell yes, this will force teams not to load up on all the good players and could allow for more teams to be formed. And you have to manage your team properly.

[MEATBALLKEVIN]

Well i dont think bench size matters. I think the # of times you can sub does. Like 2easy said,maybe 1 of each sex per game.

This way it gives the team the opportunity to not forfeit the game or not force an injured player to play, if they manage their game right. If they manage it wrong, then that falls on them.

Agree.

I fthey sub in that 1 girl for startegy in the 4th inning. .. Then in the 5th a girl get badly hurt and cant play,well then its a forfiet.