Clarification from Fully Loaded

[crAsh]

Wow...I just made it all the way through this thread and am shocked. I may be new to the circuit part of kickball but I can't believe what some people are saying. I think the teams were ranked as fairly as possible....and minus PA and FL, most teams were about equal on the playing fields. Any of those games could have gone either way. I also agree that FL is #3 right now. They've proved it in tournaments where some of these other teams, BiB included, have not played in the circuit before as a team.

I obviously didn't play in "pool A" but I felt like our pool and match up was really fair. We had some tough games and your team had to prove themselves to get beyond pool play. It really just sounds like a bunch of whining to me. If you're going to complain about the bracketing etc...come up with a better way. But I feel like teams that have already proven themselves in tournaments should not be penalized for being a better team. As some of the guys have said, it takes time to build a team like MB, PA, and FL. Those teams out there that want to compete for those spots aren't complaining about who they had to play this weekend. The only people that seem to be complaining are ones where their team didn't seem to perform as they were hoping.

PS My opinions do not reflect my teams....these are just my personal reflections...and as Trey said...I felt like a girl needed to chime in.

There needs to be more girls on here.
I literally just read this thread and have a headache. Sheeeesh you boys are annoying.

AND
FWIW: Krabbas is not really the argumentative type, so I think some people are misunderstanding how his words are coming across.

That is allllllll in this thread for the day...or forever...seriously need some Aleve...

[Edge]

Wow...I just made it all the way through this thread and am shocked. I may be new to the circuit part of kickball but I can't believe what some people are saying. I think the teams were ranked as fairly as possible....and minus PA and FL, most teams were about equal on the playing fields. Any of those games could have gone either way. I also agree that FL is #3 right now. They've proved it in tournaments where some of these other teams, BiB included, have not played in the circuit before as a team.

I obviously didn't play in "pool A" but I felt like our pool and match up was really fair. We had some tough games and your team had to prove themselves to get beyond pool play. It really just sounds like a bunch of whining to me. If you're going to complain about the bracketing etc...come up with a better way. But I feel like teams that have already proven themselves in tournaments should not be penalized for being a better team. As some of the guys have said, it takes time to build a team like MB, PA, and FL. Those teams out there that want to compete for those spots aren't complaining about who they had to play this weekend. The only people that seem to be complaining are ones where their team didn't seem to perform as they were hoping.

PS My opinions do not reflect my teams....these are just my personal reflections...and as Trey said...I felt like a girl needed to chime in.

There needs to be more girls on here.

Agreed.

[mtcoup]

You could legitimately rank them anywhere after #8 as no "team" (there may be players on those teams, but no team) ranked 9-14 had any previous circuit experience. With no previous event to base a ranking on, it becomes a complete judgment call for the event manager.

At the end of the day, win your pool play games and you'll find the road easier in single elims.

There were a couple other teams in that bottom half with Circuit experience (from 2010), but I think both those teams were ranked right around where they should have been.

My bad. I don't know how or why I skipped over you guys as not having tourney experience. If I remember correctly you guys played as Mo' Tussin in TKO last year. Regardless, I thought that 9-14 could have been ranked in many different ways.

[Catch-22]

All this talk of people supposedly "whining" throughout this forum is unproductive to the conversation. There have been a lot of legitimate points made and trying to undercut it as "whining" just because that person's team didn't have a good day at the tourney doesn't mean they weren't good points. I mean how many times has Krabbas had to say he isn't complaining about his pool schedule/seeding? If you want people to stop "whining," then give intelligent responses to their posts.

[JellyDogg]

My bad. I don't know how or why I skipped over you guys as not having tourney experience. If I remember correctly you guys played as Mo' Tussin in TKO last year. Regardless, I thought that 9-14 could have been ranked in many different ways.

No worries. We had 3 players this year that were on that team, so it's not like it was all that comparable. I think JFK played last year, too (I could be wrong). I agree with you, though. There were a lot of question mark teams down at the bottom. However they chose to do it, I think the seedings ended up pretty accurate.

[MEATBALLKEVIN]

All this talk of people supposedly "whining" throughout this forum is unproductive to the conversation. There have been a lot of legitimate points made and trying to undercut it as "whining" just because that person's team didn't have a good day at the tourney doesn't mean they weren't good points. I mean how many times has Krabbas had to say he isn't complaining about his pool schedule/seeding? If you want people to stop "whining," then give intelligent responses to their posts.

I just dont see what the problem was. Thats all im saying.

[krabbas]

new teams that we are trying to encourage to come to the Circuit will not see this the same way if they get CRUSHED by PA and FL in their first appearance.

Most "new teams" that join the Circuit will be teams that have been dominating their local leagues and are looking for more competition.

In my WAKA league, most new teams don't last more than a season or two because they sign up, get massacred in every game, deem it "no fun," and quit. This will be much less of a problem on the Circuit, as teams who join aren't just looking for "fun." They're looking for war.

I think you'd be surprised how many teams like Flying V there are in this country. I fully share their sentiments, and many others do as well.

No, the Circuit won't be able to keep the just-for-fun, flip-cup-champion, karaoke-singing light blue team from my WAKA league...but is that what you even want?

I HOPE the organizers are concerned with making it fair and fun. Because if that isn't "what the circuit is about" than it's a business model doomed for failure.

I disagree. You opened a Neiman-Marcus...Don't worry so much when your price point weeds out the Walmart shoppers. You'll quickly find that the large woman in the zebra spandex and her toothless husband in the wife beater are bad for business anyway. Sure the prices are higher, but so is the quality. I don't think you'll ever get 90+ teams for CC like there are for FC/KG, but I also don't think that was ever the Circuit's goal.

and another great post!

Yes, a great post from the guy dressed like a pirate. lol.

[krabbas]

Wow...I just made it all the way through this thread and am shocked. I may be new to the circuit part of kickball but I can't believe what some people are saying. I think the teams were ranked as fairly as possible....and minus PA and FL, most teams were about equal on the playing fields. Any of those games could have gone either way. I also agree that FL is #3 right now. They've proved it in tournaments where some of these other teams, BiB included, have not played in the circuit before as a team.

I obviously didn't play in "pool A" but I felt like our pool and match up was really fair. We had some tough games and your team had to prove themselves to get beyond pool play. It really just sounds like a bunch of whining to me. If you're going to complain about the bracketing etc...come up with a better way. But I feel like teams that have already proven themselves in tournaments should not be penalized for being a better team. As some of the guys have said, it takes time to build a team like MB, PA, and FL. Those teams out there that want to compete for those spots aren't complaining about who they had to play this weekend. The only people that seem to be complaining are ones where their team didn't seem to perform as they were hoping.

PS My opinions do not reflect my teams....these are just my personal reflections...and as Trey said...I felt like a girl needed to chime in.

There needs to be more girls on here.
I literally just read this thread and have a headache. Sheeeesh you boys are annoying.

AND
FWIW: Krabbas is not really the argumentative type, so I think some people are misunderstanding how his words are coming across.

That is allllllll in this thread for the day...or forever...seriously need some Aleve...

Shut up, Ashley. I am too an argumentative type.

(just kidding. thank you for noticing. I'm not complaining about my team or our ranking. I think Wilkinson and team did a fair job. I'm just trying to continue the discussion and look at ways we can improve the ranking... It's not always going to be done as fairly as the VBKO crew did it, and I think that's an opportunity)

[-APBT-]

All this talk of people supposedly "whining" throughout this forum is unproductive to the conversation. There have been a lot of legitimate points made and trying to undercut it as "whining" just because that person's team didn't have a good day at the tourney doesn't mean they weren't good points. I mean how many times has Krabbas had to say he isn't complaining about his pool schedule/seeding? If you want people to stop "whining," then give intelligent responses to their posts.

Tuche'! I think some people are getting the point that some of us are not speaking about our particular pool, team or even VBKO in particular but more the Circuit and it's future success. Anyone that knows me knows I have never looked for an easy way out of anything and backing down to any better, bigger or tougher opponent in anything in my life is simply not in my vocabulary. I am the person that challenges myself way more then any team or other person could ever do to begin with. Unfortunately we have some Pots, I mean Trey calling the Kettle black with his whining comments and trying to invoke people to argue with him. My point is not to talk about iB, FL, PA or any team for that matter.

TST - great post, sorry if we thread jacked you a bit as well. I owe you a shot and a beer when you get to DC to show you that it was never anything personal against anyone on your team or the team as a whole.

[MEATBALLKEVIN]

Yes a great post by a pirate. All of his points are true. He makes a good point saying that a new team from waka joing the circuit probably dominated their division and are looking for competetion. That is what the circuit is all about!

[krabbas]

All this talk of people supposedly "whining" throughout this forum is unproductive to the conversation. There have been a lot of legitimate points made and trying to undercut it as "whining" just because that person's team didn't have a good day at the tourney doesn't mean they weren't good points. I mean how many times has Krabbas had to say he isn't complaining about his pool schedule/seeding? If you want people to stop "whining," then give intelligent responses to their posts.

Thanks, I'm trying to be as clear as possible that I'm not whining about my team. I'm not sure if people are intentionally misreading my posts just to fish for a reaction from me or if people really aren't getting my point (in which case, I don't know what to do about that).

[MEATBALLKEVIN]

All this talk of people supposedly "whining" throughout this forum is unproductive to the conversation. There have been a lot of legitimate points made and trying to undercut it as "whining" just because that person's team didn't have a good day at the tourney doesn't mean they weren't good points. I mean how many times has Krabbas had to say he isn't complaining about his pool schedule/seeding? If you want people to stop "whining," then give intelligent responses to their posts.

Thanks, I'm trying to be as clear as possible that I'm not whining about my team. I'm not sure if people are intentionally misreading my posts just to fish for a reaction from me or if people really aren't getting my point (in which case, I don't know what to do about that).

I dont think your teams schedule was unfair at VBKO

[krabbas]

Yes a great post by a pirate. All of his points are true. He makes a good point saying that a new team from waka joing the circuit probably dominated their division and are looking for competetion. That is what the circuit is all about!

Yeah, I agree. They were good points... But if they go to the circuit and there is a perceived bias with the rankings (whether it's accurate or not) they may look elsewhere to get that competitive fix... (Softball, other rec sports, etc.)

[krabbas]

All this talk of people supposedly "whining" throughout this forum is unproductive to the conversation. There have been a lot of legitimate points made and trying to undercut it as "whining" just because that person's team didn't have a good day at the tourney doesn't mean they weren't good points. I mean how many times has Krabbas had to say he isn't complaining about his pool schedule/seeding? If you want people to stop "whining," then give intelligent responses to their posts.

Thanks, I'm trying to be as clear as possible that I'm not whining about my team. I'm not sure if people are intentionally misreading my posts just to fish for a reaction from me or if people really aren't getting my point (in which case, I don't know what to do about that).

I dont think your teams schedule was unfair at VBKO

Haha. Thanks! We finally agree!

BTW, I have an extremely boring job. This thread is the only thing getting me through the last few days.

[MEATBALLKEVIN]

Yes a great post by a pirate. All of his points are true. He makes a good point saying that a new team from waka joing the circuit probably dominated their division and are looking for competetion. That is what the circuit is all about!

Yeah, I agree. They were good points... But if they go to the circuit and there is a perceived bias with the rankings (whether it's accurate or not) they may look elsewhere to get that competitive fix... (Softball, other rec sports, etc.)

If they Love kickball as much as the rest of us then they will keep playing kickball. If they are going to travel then they are competetive for sure and they would understand being the new kid on the block for their first tournament will give that a ranking that may not be accurate(but will be pretty damn close) and they will have to deal with it until they earn the ranking they deserve for the next tournament. The people that dont agree with seedings are NOT the new teams. Its the guys that have been around a while. And my point is that if you dont do anything to prove you deserve a better # then what are you mad about? Did they want to be the #12 seed as opposed to#14? I dont get it?

[Lost_Sage]

Great point, and in our captain surveys from all of last year's Circuit season, that is what captains overwhelmingly prefer: World Cup draw --

Seed the top teams
Fill pools based on geographic distribution

In descending order of preference, captains then preferred:
Pure seeding
Hybrid random (protections for geographic distribution)
Completely random (least preferred)

Simple solution to this problem would be to do tourneys World Cup style. Seed the top 3 - 5 teams at the top of each pool (depending on how many pools there are) and then fill the pools in randomly. This would prevent the top teams from having to play each other early, but would not necessarily give the top teams the easier pools with the lowest seeds and the middle teams the "pool of death" every time.

[dp3]

Yes, a great post from the guy dressed like a pirate. lol.

Pirate costume = street cred...You didn't know?

I'm just saying that you can't use the same marketing strategy for the Circuit that they do for WAKA. If you use "fun and fairness" as your selling point, then why wouldn't I just stay with WAKA? FC/KG is very fun, and very fair.

Oh, and when I do participate in a Circuit event, it will be dressed as a pirate. Remind me beforehand; I'll bring you an En Fuego eyepatch. You can be Honorary First Mate.

if they go to the circuit and there is a perceived bias with the rankings

My points (most of them on this forum, actually) are about marketing and growth for the Circuit as a whole. I've never participated in an event, and I therefore don't feel qualified to comment on the fairness of rankings.

I fully expect to be the 16 seed facing the 1 the first time I play. If you've never played with or against me and don't know anything about my team, how could I expect anything else?

[MEATBALLKEVIN]

Yes, a great post from the guy dressed like a pirate. lol.

Pirate costume = street cred...You didn't know?

I'm just saying that you can't use the same marketing strategy for the Circuit that they do for WAKA. If you use "fun and fairness" as your selling point, then why wouldn't I just stay with WAKA? FC/KG is very fun, and very fair.

Oh, and when I do participate in a Circuit event, it will be dressed as a pirate. Remind me beforehand; I'll bring you an En Fuego eyepatch. You can be Honorary First Mate.

if they go to the circuit and there is a perceived bias with the rankings

My points (most of them on this forum, actually) are about marketing and growth for the Circuit as a whole. I've never participated in an event, and I therefore don't feel qualified to comment on the fairness of rankings.

I fully expect to be the 16 seed facing the 1 the first time I play. If you've never played with or against me and don't know anything about my team, how could I expect anything else?

Again another great post.

If there was a level above the circuit and the MEATBALLS went to play in it for the first time,then i would expect to be the #16 seed .

[Lost_Sage]

Yep, what MBK said ...

Yes a great post by a pirate. All of his points are true. He makes a good point saying that a new team from waka joing the circuit probably dominated their division and are looking for competetion. That is what the circuit is all about!

Yeah, I agree. They were good points... But if they go to the circuit and there is a perceived bias with the rankings (whether it's accurate or not) they may look elsewhere to get that competitive fix... (Softball, other rec sports, etc.)

If they Love kickball as much as the rest of us then they will keep playing kickball. If they are going to travel then they are competitive for sure, and they would understand being the new kid on the block for their first tournament will give that a ranking that may not be accurate (but will be pretty damn close), and they will have to deal with it until they earn the ranking they deserve for the next tournament. The people that dont agree with seedings are NOT the new teams. Its the guys that have been around a while. And my point is that if you dont do anything to prove you deserve a better # then what are you mad about? Did they want to be the #12 seed as opposed to#14? I dont get it?

[-APBT-]

Great point, and in our captain surveys from all of last year's Circuit season, that is what captains overwhelmingly prefer: World Cup draw --

There is a key part of the problem, that's last year when things were brand new, in order to advance changes need to be made this year, next year and every year until it's down to a science. Which it is not right now. A last ranked team will never get over any hump to get a higher ranking when facing #1 and #2 like Skittles did. If Skittles were a brand new team to the Circuit, you will most likely have this team fall apart and not travel because of the associated costs to get crushed by the leagues best in every outing. Giving a #1 or #2 team an easier day is not the way to build any league and I actually have seen some of the people opposing this same situation they have been granted by this ranking system against OSC for being put in a similar situation in FC last year.

[krabbas]

Yes, a great post from the guy dressed like a pirate. lol.

Pirate costume = street cred...You didn't know?

I'm just saying that you can't use the same marketing strategy for the Circuit that they do for WAKA. If you use "fun and fairness" as your selling point, then why wouldn't I just stay with WAKA? FC/KG is very fun, and very fair.

Oh, and when I do participate in a Circuit event, it will be dressed as a pirate. Remind me beforehand; I'll bring you an En Fuego eyepatch. You can be Honorary First Mate.

if they go to the circuit and there is a perceived bias with the rankings

My points (most of them on this forum, actually) are about marketing and growth for the Circuit as a whole. I've never participated in an event, and I therefore don't feel qualified to comment on the fairness of rankings.

I fully expect to be the 16 seed facing the 1 the first time I play. If you've never played with or against me and don't know anything about my team, how could I expect anything else?

So, you're saying the circuit should market itself as "not fun and unfair"? Haha.

And actually, I dig the pirate costume. No disrespect intended there, matey!

[krabbas]

So it this was the voice of the customer, than why wasn't this implemented across Circuit Tourneys for 2011 after the feedback was received?

((Again, not complaining about VBKO, the schedule, or rankings specifically. The organizers did a great job overall.))

Great point, and in our captain surveys from all of last year's Circuit season, that is what captains overwhelmingly prefer: World Cup draw --

Seed the top teams
Fill pools based on geographic distribution

In descending order of preference, captains then preferred:
Pure seeding
Hybrid random (protections for geographic distribution)
Completely random (least preferred)

Simple solution to this problem would be to do tourneys World Cup style. Seed the top 3 - 5 teams at the top of each pool (depending on how many pools there are) and then fill the pools in randomly. This would prevent the top teams from having to play each other early, but would not necessarily give the top teams the easier pools with the lowest seeds and the middle teams the "pool of death" every time.

[Catch-22]

Great point, and in our captain surveys from all of last year's Circuit season, that is what captains overwhelmingly prefer: World Cup draw --

Seed the top teams
Fill pools based on geographic distribution

In descending order of preference, captains then preferred:
Pure seeding
Hybrid random (protections for geographic distribution)
Completely random (least preferred)

Simple solution to this problem would be to do tourneys World Cup style. Seed the top 3 - 5 teams at the top of each pool (depending on how many pools there are) and then fill the pools in randomly. This would prevent the top teams from having to play each other early, but would not necessarily give the top teams the easier pools with the lowest seeds and the middle teams the "pool of death" every time.

I agree that World Cup style is the best format. It sounds like a lot of the issues from VBKO are at least based in the fact that for whatever reason(s) (geographic distribution, not enough teams), the two pools were not really done World Cup style. Which makes sense, since World Cup style is essentially impossible to do with only two pools. The whole point of World Cup style is to give the top four or five teams their own pool. When #1 and #2 don't have to play each other, but #3-8 beat the crap out of each other all morning, the schedule hasn't properly distributed the seedings.

Don't get me wrong. I'm entirely in favor of seedings. I just want the schedule to reflect it properly: #1 easiest schedule, #2 second easiest schedule, #3 third easiest schedule, etc.

[Lost_Sage]

See the first part I put in boldface, which I think belies your reference point -- the Circuit National Tour isn't a league model. In a league, it is of paramount importance to equalize difficulty. Competitive teams want to play competitive teams, social teams want to play other social ones.

You can only manage people's expectations so much with The Circuit, but it should be pretty clear, this is the pre-eminent series for competitive kickball across all leagues. You have to know going in that you will have tough competition, some of it really tough. We all have to get over humps, and if we do well, chances are at some point our paths will go through #1 and #2. The Circuit can and does find otherwise to encourage new teams who will take their licks ... the fact that we all want to find even little ways to get better, that we want to put on a killer weekend everyone will enjoy on and off the field, and that we all respect each other for showing up and trying our best out there, whether we go 7-0 or 0-4 on the day.

Some tourneys do skill tiers (pure seeding tourneys), so that you get 1 killer team, 1 very good team, 1 good team, and 1 novice team. Others (WC seeding) ensure you get 1 seed but give you a tossup in skill in exchange for making sure you play teams outside your region. (Sorry, you have to trade one for the other ... there is no real way to ensure both.) I'm sure still other event managers could toss in exceptions for ensuring that repeat pool play matchups in a given Circuit season don't happen (and they have the leeway to do so).

So what's the alternative? Random draw? Captains were pretty adamant in ranking that last of their four preferences for pool play construction.

There is a key part of the problem, that's last year when things were brand new, in order to advance changes need to be made this year, next year and every year until it's down to a science. Which it is not right now. A last ranked team will never get over any hump to get a higher ranking when facing #1 and #2 like Skittles did. If Skittles were a brand new team to the Circuit, you will most likely have this team fall apart and not travel because of the associated costs to get crushed by the leagues best in every outing. Giving a #1 or #2 team an easier day is not the way to build any league and I actually have seen some of the people opposing this same situation they have been granted by this ranking system against OSC for being put in a similar situation in FC last year.

Ah, but there's the rub. You're presuming the integrity of the FC rankings with this last statement. That I'm not sure is wise. The FC seeding committee, by its mandate, only takes into account WAKA league and league tourney performance. Not Circuit events, not even quality wins in WAKA against nationally competitive league foes. That sample size, to me, is inherently suspect.

[Edge]

Yes, a great post from the guy dressed like a pirate. lol.

Pirate costume = street cred...You didn't know?

I'm just saying that you can't use the same marketing strategy for the Circuit that they do for WAKA. If you use "fun and fairness" as your selling point, then why wouldn't I just stay with WAKA? FC/KG is very fun, and very fair.

Oh, and when I do participate in a Circuit event, it will be dressed as a pirate. Remind me beforehand; I'll bring you an En Fuego eyepatch. You can be Honorary First Mate.

if they go to the circuit and there is a perceived bias with the rankings

My points (most of them on this forum, actually) are about marketing and growth for the Circuit as a whole. I've never participated in an event, and I therefore don't feel qualified to comment on the fairness of rankings.

I fully expect to be the 16 seed facing the 1 the first time I play. If you've never played with or against me and don't know anything about my team, how could I expect anything else?

Again another great post.

If there was a level above the circuit and the MEATBALLS went to play in it for the first time,then i would expect to be the #16 seed .

I don't believe you.

[Lost_Sage]

Because it is still up to the Event Manager what s/he wants to do with his/her individual event. Take Wimbledon, for example, which does not use the WTA rankings (it develops its own seeds). Take the FA Cup (one of the 3 "holy grails" in EPL soccer), which is, after an initial opening-round bracket for the lowest tiers of pro soccer, subject to completely random re-draw in its single elimination main bracket. The examples go on and on ...

We still advise Event Managers of the feedback results and captains' preferences. And it is up to them to consider that meaningfully when structuring the individual tourneys.

So it this was the voice of the customer, than why wasn't this implemented across Circuit Tourneys for 2011 after the feedback was received?

((Again, not complaining about VBKO, the schedule, or rankings specifically. The organizers did a great job overall.))

Great point, and in our captain surveys from all of last year's Circuit season, that is what captains overwhelmingly prefer: World Cup draw --

Seed the top teams
Fill pools based on geographic distribution

In descending order of preference, captains then preferred:
Pure seeding
Hybrid random (protections for geographic distribution)
Completely random (least preferred)

Simple solution to this problem would be to do tourneys World Cup style. Seed the top 3 - 5 teams at the top of each pool (depending on how many pools there are) and then fill the pools in randomly. This would prevent the top teams from having to play each other early, but would not necessarily give the top teams the easier pools with the lowest seeds and the middle teams the "pool of death" every time.

[dp3]

So, you're saying the circuit should market itself as "not fun and unfair"? Haha.

Noooooo! I just mean that if I ever see "Best Parties. Best Games. Best Friends." as an advertisement for the Circuit then I'm probably gonna peace out.

I don't mean that it shouldn't be fun. It absolutely is fun, and I know everyone drinks & parties all the same afterward. When it comes to marketing, though, and you're the new guy competing against a huge company who already has a stranglehold on the market, you need to differentiate. You need to set yourself apart from these other leagues. They all offer "fairness and fun." This is fun too, I just don't think it's how you need to approach recruitment.

And actually, I dig the pirate costume.

Thanks. It's form-fitting and aerodynamic, providing for ultimate performance! Also, there's the intimidation factor...It's okay to be scared!

[the smaller twin]

TST - great post, sorry if we thread jacked you a bit as well. I owe you a shot and a beer when you get to DC to show you that it was never anything personal against anyone on your team or the team as a whole.

No need to apologize man. I think my post has sparked an interesting discussion about an issue that needs to be addressed. And we never took anything personal as we respect your team and feel that you guys are a top notch team. I will however take you up on that shot and a beer.

[MEATBALLKEVIN]

Yes, a great post from the guy dressed like a pirate. lol.

Pirate costume = street cred...You didn't know?

I'm just saying that you can't use the same marketing strategy for the Circuit that they do for WAKA. If you use "fun and fairness" as your selling point, then why wouldn't I just stay with WAKA? FC/KG is very fun, and very fair.

Oh, and when I do participate in a Circuit event, it will be dressed as a pirate. Remind me beforehand; I'll bring you an En Fuego eyepatch. You can be Honorary First Mate.

if they go to the circuit and there is a perceived bias with the rankings

My points (most of them on this forum, actually) are about marketing and growth for the Circuit as a whole. I've never participated in an event, and I therefore don't feel qualified to comment on the fairness of rankings.

I fully expect to be the 16 seed facing the 1 the first time I play. If you've never played with or against me and don't know anything about my team, how could I expect anything else?

Again another great post.

If there was a level above the circuit and the MEATBALLS went to play in it for the first time,then i would expect to be the #16 seed .

I don't believe you.

with 16 teams the #16 seeds pool is no different than #1's

[krabbas]

Because it is still up to the Event Manager what s/he wants to do with his/her individual event. Take Wimbledon, for example, which does not use the WTA rankings (it develops its own seeds). Take the FA Cup (one of the 3 "holy grails" in EPL soccer), which is, after an initial opening-round bracket for the lowest tiers of pro soccer, subject to completely random re-draw in its single elimination main bracket. The examples go on and on ...

We still advise Event Managers of the feedback results and captains' preferences. And it is up to them to consider that meaningfully when structuring the individual tourneys.

So it this was the voice of the customer, than why wasn't this implemented across Circuit Tourneys for 2011 after the feedback was received?

((Again, not complaining about VBKO, the schedule, or rankings specifically. The organizers did a great job overall.))

Great point, and in our captain surveys from all of last year's Circuit season, that is what captains overwhelmingly prefer: World Cup draw --

Seed the top teams
Fill pools based on geographic distribution

In descending order of preference, captains then preferred:
Pure seeding
Hybrid random (protections for geographic distribution)
Completely random (least preferred)

Simple solution to this problem would be to do tourneys World Cup style. Seed the top 3 - 5 teams at the top of each pool (depending on how many pools there are) and then fill the pools in randomly. This would prevent the top teams from having to play each other early, but would not necessarily give the top teams the easier pools with the lowest seeds and the middle teams the "pool of death" every time.

Gotcha... I'll keep that in mind when I complete future surveys that the feedback will probably be ignored.

[Edge]

Yes, a great post from the guy dressed like a pirate. lol.

Pirate costume = street cred...You didn't know?

I'm just saying that you can't use the same marketing strategy for the Circuit that they do for WAKA. If you use "fun and fairness" as your selling point, then why wouldn't I just stay with WAKA? FC/KG is very fun, and very fair.

Oh, and when I do participate in a Circuit event, it will be dressed as a pirate. Remind me beforehand; I'll bring you an En Fuego eyepatch. You can be Honorary First Mate.

if they go to the circuit and there is a perceived bias with the rankings

My points (most of them on this forum, actually) are about marketing and growth for the Circuit as a whole. I've never participated in an event, and I therefore don't feel qualified to comment on the fairness of rankings.

I fully expect to be the 16 seed facing the 1 the first time I play. If you've never played with or against me and don't know anything about my team, how could I expect anything else?

Again another great post.

If there was a level above the circuit and the MEATBALLS went to play in it for the first time,then i would expect to be the #16 seed .

I don't believe you.

with 16 teams the #16 seeds pool is no different than #1's

True, but we know that Meatballs would never be a #16 seed in any kickball tournament regardless of organization/tournament/rules/etc.

[kim dude]

Just for record I had no problem with us being the last seed and therefor facing the top seed. Makes perfect sense. Having to face the top 2 seeds is a little suspect. The fact that both the top 2 seeds got to play both the 2 bottom seeds is BS. I really had no problem from a players perspective because I didn't give a shit who we played and was happy to face new teams. But from a philosophical perspective I find it wrong because you are giving them what are basically 2 unearned wins, guaranteeing they will make it out of pool play without even having to try. You're cooking the books to get a predetermined result.

[MEATBALLKEVIN]

I think using team skittles as an example is scewing all of your heads up. Team skittles was playing in VBKO because they were a local team. Just like at pretty much every tournament there is a local team that gets beat up on in the morning. Their expectations we not high,they knew they would not get out of pool play, and they knew they would mostly likey go 0-4 or 1-3. These teams do not travel to all the evnts and are probably not even registered for the circuit. As long as the top 10 teams are ranked and spread accurate than i can care less with what they do with the rest of the field.


Im sorry APBT but i cant agree with you about the 13-16 ranked teams (lets say the tourney has 16 teams) getting worked in pool play is wrong. If # 16 played # 5,6 and 7 the result would be the same,a loss. I think some of these teams are happy to get a shot to play against the best and see what all the buzz was about. They know there are not going to be playing in the afternoon either way unless everyone makes it out of pool play.

Now if you ranked the top 8 say and put them in pools like

#1 and 8

#2 and 7

#3 and 6

#4 and 5

then random draw 2 teams for each pool after that...people would still complain. No matter where that #16 seed gets drawn to they are going to lose to those 2 seeds. You know that.

As far as people saying that its not fair that the top seeds are more rested after pool play. Thats ridiculous. We have a roster of 20 and my players sacriface playing time so the team is well rested. You can all do the same if you wanted to.

[kim dude]

I think using team skittles as an example is scewing all of your heads up. Team skittles was playing in VBKO because they were a local team.

Not exactly true. While I captained it as a local and had some of my local friends on the team we had players travel from Arizona, DC, Connecticut and Minnesota (although he was coming to town anyway). So yeah, we had people fly here and stay in hotels just like a "real" team.

[Trey it Up]

There have to be a bunch of Socialists on this Message Board. I've never heard so many people argue that hard work, dedication, and a superior skill set should not afford you any advantages.

[MEATBALLKEVIN]

I think using team skittles as an example is scewing all of your heads up. Team skittles was playing in VBKO because they were a local team.

Not exactly true. While I captained it as a local and had some of my local friends on the team we had players travel from Arizona, DC, Connecticut and Minnesota (although he was coming to town anyway). So yeah, we had people fly here and stay in hotels just like a "real" team.

I think every tournament committee understands what type of team that an AZ,CT and so mix will be. (it means beers at 7 am).

Kimdude,

Until just now i did not realize the you played PANIK AND FL in the morning. You did kind of get screwed. You should have only played 1 of them.

[krabbas]

There have to be a bunch of Socialists on this Message Board. I've never heard so many people argue that hard work, dedication, and a superior skill set should not afford you any advantages.

I think there are a lot of Casteists on this board who want to impose barriers on lower classes to prevent them from moving up!

[MEATBALLKEVIN]

There have to be a bunch of Socialists on this Message Board. I've never heard so many people argue that hard work, dedication, and a superior skill set should not afford you any advantages.

People are saying this week on here that being mean and talking smack can turn teams away from the circuit. They are now saying that having the worst teams play the best will turn teams away from the circuit. Well i dont think people that like that should be part of the circuit. That is not what its about. Its not what i signed up for.

[MEATBALLKEVIN]

There have to be a bunch of Socialists on this Message Board. I've never heard so many people argue that hard work, dedication, and a superior skill set should not afford you any advantages.

I think there are a lot of Casteists on this board who want to impose barriers on lower classes to prevent them from moving up!

None of these top teams were born "rich". We worked hard,and moved in to the upper class by earning it.

You are so brain washed by waka its scary.

[-APBT-]

Ah, but there's the rub. You're presuming the integrity of the FC rankings with this last statement. That I'm not sure is wise. The FC seeding committee, by its mandate, only takes into account WAKA league and league tourney performance. Not Circuit events, not even quality wins in WAKA against nationally competitive league foes. That sample size, to me, is inherently suspect.

I wouldn't be presuming the FC rankings anymore then someone presuming that a team from last year deserves a ranking based on last season's tournament results. What if no one knew who OSC was and didn't know that they had a significant overhaul? What if that overhaul left them worse then most teams playing in the Circuit. You would then assign them a #6 seed based on last year? Not to much different then WAKA's assuming to me. What about teams that skipped SFKO and VBKO, do they deserve to step in and assume an old ranking when the game has become more and more difficult to win each year?

MBK - I am not by any means trying to say that I have the solution, but more trying to come with solutions and not only problems with my objections. I am not sure what the solution should be, but I do think it requires more thought to be put in to it before DC. I haven't gotten to play PA, FL, BD, LIU in any tournament so I just want to play new teams in general as well as some old ones. I am unfortunately out of this debate at least until Tuesday, I am leaving town due to a death in the family. I just hope it continues to draw attention and deeper thought. Later all!

TST we will have many my friend!