Info on how Pools are being selected....

[Captain_Relax]

The point of an open tourney is to have the best teams advance. All this time I thought it was to win the money.

From a tournament director stand point you want the epic final that everyone wants to see. Obviously, from a player stand point everyone wants to win. 2 easy you are not competing well in this argument, if I didn't know any better I'd think got a new SN.

That is the problem. Top teams are looking out for their best interest and are not open for a challenge. They whine until they get the easiest path to meet that goal or they go to a tourney they have the best chance to do so. I don't understand why all tourneys must cater top team instead of ALL teams.

Please refer what you said above "The goal of the tournament is to win the money".

I wouldn't mind ranked snake pools if there was a true system of ranking teams. But it is impossible in the current state of kickball. NO team looks the same from tourney to tourney and you can't really rank teams accurately. No WC team plays an EC team when both are full strength. Traveling cross country prevents this.

This is correct, but is it better to get it to the closest correct rankings or just say aww f*ck it lets just pick from a hat? You act like there are huge mistakes made at tournaments all the time where teams don't get a good ranking and then don't make elimination because of it, not because they just weren't good enough. What scarred you?

Example. The purposed pools for this tourney, the 6 team pools, the top teams don't face each other, which means the bottom teams must play both top ranked teams. So a top team plays 0 ranked teams in pool play while the bottom teams play 2 top teams. REAL F'ing FAIR!

Why can't a top team face another top team? I think every team must play at least the #1 and/or #2 seed in their pool. Which mean #1 would face #2. This means every team has at least 1 tough game and it would even out play.

But if the rankings are as skewed and bad as you say they are then who says the #1 or #2 team will be any good? Also the good teams play plenty of tough games...in elimination. If the bottom seeds are just going to get walked over as you're suggesting then what right do they have to the elimination round? That they paid their money? Should we start giving participation trophies as well?

I love that you can have a team play the #2, #5, #8, #11, while another team has to play the #8, #11, #14, #17 and say this is fair and doesn't have any favoritism.

It's fair because the teams have earned, in the tournament directors and other Captain's minds, to be ranked where they are. Nothing was given to them when they started kickball, they performed well at some tournaments and people took notice. Are the rankings correct? No it'd be impossible cause there just aren't enough games to judge by and rosters change but if it's a choice between structure and no structure it's an easy choice.

[Captain_Relax]

Captain's Pick! Teams get ranked and then you go through the rankings letting the captain's pick the teams they want to play. Seed #1 picks it's opponents, followed by seed #2, etc until all team's schedules are selected.

How exactly does this work? Never seen it before.

The top seed of each seed is chosen (i.e. 3 pools 3 teams) those teams then draft their opponents until the pools are filled.

I have always liked this way as well and I am hoping this will be tested out at some point.

Hahaha WHAT!?!?! It's still a seeded pool, the only difference this time is the perceived top talent gets to pick there own pool. Earlier you were saying it's not fair that the top teams are catered to, I can't think of a bigger way than doing it to where they get to PICK their opponents!!!!

[Static]

Captain's Pick! Teams get ranked and then you go through the rankings letting the captain's pick the teams they want to play. Seed #1 picks it's opponents, followed by seed #2, etc until all team's schedules are selected.

How exactly does this work? Never seen it before.

All teams get seeded (captain's rankings, expert poll, fan ratings, etc). Top seed selects the teams in their pool. I think it would be more interesting if it was done so nobody is safe so if the #1 seed wants to play seeds 2,3, and 4 it can happen. Next highest ranked team gets to pick out their pool and so on until all the pools are filled. Personally I think it would make for some interesting match-ups.

So, seed #1 goes first. Do they pick all of the teams they want in their pool, or do they pick one, then #2 picks one, then #3 picks...?

[Captain_Relax]

Captain's Pick! Teams get ranked and then you go through the rankings letting the captain's pick the teams they want to play. Seed #1 picks it's opponents, followed by seed #2, etc until all team's schedules are selected.

How exactly does this work? Never seen it before.

All teams get seeded (captain's rankings, expert poll, fan ratings, etc). Top seed selects the teams in their pool. I think it would be more interesting if it was done so nobody is safe so if the #1 seed wants to play seeds 2,3, and 4 it can happen. Next highest ranked team gets to pick out their pool and so on until all the pools are filled. Personally I think it would make for some interesting match-ups.

So, seed #1 goes first. Do they pick all of the teams they want in their pool, or do they pick one, then #2 picks one, then #3 picks...?

I think it'd make the most sense to do it like a draft 1 picks, 2 picks, 3 picks. Whether you wanted to snake it to make the pools more even or just keep going 1,2,3 every round is probably a topic for debate. Obviously the 2nd way gives the highest seed the advantage but I think that either way would be fun.

[Static]

Captain's Pick! Teams get ranked and then you go through the rankings letting the captain's pick the teams they want to play. Seed #1 picks it's opponents, followed by seed #2, etc until all team's schedules are selected.

How exactly does this work? Never seen it before.

All teams get seeded (captain's rankings, expert poll, fan ratings, etc). Top seed selects the teams in their pool. I think it would be more interesting if it was done so nobody is safe so if the #1 seed wants to play seeds 2,3, and 4 it can happen. Next highest ranked team gets to pick out their pool and so on until all the pools are filled. Personally I think it would make for some interesting match-ups.

So, seed #1 goes first. Do they pick all of the teams they want in their pool, or do they pick one, then #2 picks one, then #3 picks...?

I think it'd make the most sense to do it like a draft 1 picks, 2 picks, 3 picks. Whether you wanted to snake it to make the pools more even or just keep going 1,2,3 every round is probably a topic for debate. Obviously the 2nd way gives the highest seed the advantage but I think that either way would be fun.

I'd agree with that. If #1 could pick all their teams first...what would stop them from picking four/five local teams no ones ever heard of?

[Trey it Up]

The point of an open tourney is to have the best teams advance. All this time I thought it was to win the money.

That is the problem. Top teams are looking out for their best interest and are not open for a challenge. They whine until they get the easiest path to meet that goal or they go to a tourney they have the best chance to do so. I don't understand why all tourneys must cater top team instead of ALL teams.

I wouldn't mind ranked snake pools if there was a true system of ranking teams. But it is impossible in the current state of kickball. NO team looks the same from tourney to tourney and you can't really rank teams accurately. No WC team plays an EC team when both are full strength. Traveling cross country prevents this.

Example. The purposed pools for this tourney, the 6 team pools, the top teams don't face each other, which means the bottom teams must play both top ranked teams. So a top team plays 0 ranked teams in pool play while the bottom teams play 2 top teams. REAL F'ing FAIR!

Why can't a top team face another top team? I think every team must play at least the #1 and/or #2 seed in their pool. Which mean #1 would face #2. This means every team has at least 1 tough game and it would even out play.

I love that you can have a team play the #2, #5, #8, #11, while another team has to play the #8, #11, #14, #17 and say this is fair and doesn't have any favoritism.

The logical fallacies in your argument make it hilarious to read!

First you argue against seeding tournaments because there is no way to accurately rank all the teams. Then you claim that seeding tournaments is unfair to the lower seeds because the top seeds are better teams.

If the rankings aren't relatively accurate, how do you know the top seeds are better than the lower seeds?

[Typod]

I agree with your point, I'm not saying it's perfect, I just think it's better than doing a random draw based on nothing.

Random draw is based on nothing, the "rankings" are generally based (after the top 2-3 teams on generally bad information) I dont think no information is really much different than incorrect information.

[Typod]

The goal of the tournament is not for the best teams to get better.

Clearly not, as you are asking to give them a less challenging path to the final.

[Typod]

One could argue either way, but most teams distribute "benefits" equally.

Only teams of socialist commies. Obviously. I sure hope your team(s) have the moral fiber to pay out based on performance and scoff at the idea of sharing the wealth we all know a small handful of people earned for those freeloaders at the bottom of the order.

[Typod]

I never said I support random seeding, I wouldn't staunchly oppose it, but I know there are much better ways of doing it.

Such as?!?!

Regional, current circuit standings, historical winning % in circuit events, past performance, lots of things we have actual data on. Not some loudmouth on a message board spending a month hyping his teams pickups for the day swaying a survey.

[JACKHAMMER]

This thread has been entertaining. We are looking forward to Austin because there are a lot of teams we have not played in a city that few of us have ever been to. Should be another high level tournament with lots of great games. I'm sure as there is at every tournament some upsets, a few new teams that surprise people, some teams that will play above what was expected and others that play below expectations. At the end of the day people will complain about this reason or that reason but the overall agreement will be that it was competitive and well run and hopefully bring in a few more teams to the Circuit for the long run. Looking forward to getting after it in a few days.

[Trey it Up]

One could argue either way, but most teams distribute "benefits" equally.

Only teams of socialist commies. Obviously. I sure hope your team(s) have the moral fiber to pay out based on performance and scoff at the idea of sharing the wealth we all know a small handful of people earned for those freeloaders at the bottom of the order.

Nobody on Panik has ever put up a Corey Tiger patented "1-11." Everyone has always contributed nearly equally. You don't achieve the level of success that Panik has achieved if there are players who are noticeably better than the rest of the team. When everyone is virtually equal, it's very easy to justify evenly doling out the winnings.

[Trey it Up]

I never said I support random seeding, I wouldn't staunchly oppose it, but I know there are much better ways of doing it.

Such as?!?!

Regional, current circuit standings, historical winning % in circuit events, past performance, lots of things we have actual data on. Not some loudmouth on a message board spending a month hyping his teams pickups for the day swaying a survey.

Do you have actual proof this has ever happened?

[j22201]

I have never seen Tweasy play. Is there some reason he hates top seeded teams?

[Zer0ne]

The goal of the tournament is not for the best teams to get better. As Trey said goal of a tournament should be to match up the best teams in the end,

There's the problem. A tournament shouldn't have any end goal like this in mind. Every tournament should be neutral and should be set up to let things play out how they play out. When you start mapping out the end game, then you start making decisions that lead to whatever end game you have in mind, and if a particular team isn't part of that end game, then those decisions are not going to be in their best interest, but they will be in the best interest of those other teams. This is the very definition of an advantage.

not give the low man on the totem poll an advantage.

If this is truly how you feel, then do you have a problem with giving the high man on the totem poll an advantage? If so, explain why.

I'm not saying I know what's best for any tournament, including this one. But, I do know that with a specific end goal in mind, it can lead to decisions that keep the playing field slanted.

There is a difference between attempting to match up the two best teams that day, and attempting to match up the two perceived best teams that day.

[Zer0ne]

The point of an job search is to find the best person on that particular day (or multiple days if there are multiple interviews) as well. You narrow the field based on their resumes which reflect previous experience and success. Then you interview the best candidates--not everyone that applied. The candidate that gets the job is the one that had the best interview(s).

I bolded where your argument is flawed. It works if it's the job of the tournament committee to pick the best team, not if you want on-field play to determine the best team. If that's what everybody wants, then sure, using past resumes to determine who plays in the finals will work.

But, is that what we want? Do we want the tournament committee narrowing down the field beforehand and orchestrating the finals before a pitch is thrown?

[2_easy]

No hate for top teams at all. No hate for seeded tourneys. My argument and annoyance is the whining of top teams if they don't get an easy draw in pool play. (It happens every tourney)

I keep hearing the argument they earned it. WTF? I don't give a fuck what you have done last week, last month, last year. All that matters is that you earn it at the tourney you are currently in. Some teams will have an easier road, but in the end, the best team wins.

[Captain_Relax]

The goal of the tournament is not for the best teams to get better. As Trey said goal of a tournament should be to match up the best teams in the end,

There's the problem. A tournament shouldn't have any end goal like this in mind. Every tournament should be neutral and should be set up to let things play out how they play out. When you start mapping out the end game, then you start making decisions that lead to whatever end game you have in mind, and if a particular team isn't part of that end game, then those decisions are not going to be in their best interest, but they will be in the best interest of those other teams. This is the very definition of an advantage.

The saying "May the best team win" is said for a reason at the beginning of tournaments. And sure with a random seeding it may still work out that way but IMO it would be stupid for the two best teams to play an 8am game on wet grass because they got a random draw than to see the two best teams in the tournament face off after a day long of great competition.

not give the low man on the totem poll an advantage.

If this is truly how you feel, then do you have a problem with giving the high man on the totem poll an advantage? If so, explain why.

I'm not saying I know what's best for any tournament, including this one. But, I do know that with a specific end goal in mind, it can lead to decisions that keep the playing field slanted.

There is a difference between attempting to match up the two best teams that day, and attempting to match up the two perceived best teams that day.[/quote]

Because the high man on the totem poll has EARNED the advantage. Whether this be based on somebody thinking their good, somebody knowing their good, or past wins and losses there is a reason that they are ranked that high. The answer that people have been hinting at "message board talk" is stupid. If you sheep are that easily swayed then you have no business in the poll. The message board is helpful knowing which teams will bring what players.

[Captain_Relax]

No hate for top teams at all. No hate for seeded tourneys. My argument and annoyance is the whining of top teams if they don't get an easy draw in pool play. (It happens every tourney)
I keep hearing the argument they earned it. WTF? I don't give a fuck what you have done last week, last month, last year. All that matters is that you earn it at the tourney you are currently in. Some teams will have an easier road, but in the end, the best team wins.

Such as?

[Captain_Relax]

I agree with your point, I'm not saying it's perfect, I just think it's better than doing a random draw based on nothing.

Random draw is based on nothing, the "rankings" are generally based (after the top 2-3 teams on generally bad information) I dont think no information is really much different than incorrect information.

Sure it's not a 100% exact science but to say most of it is bad information I'm not sure that's true. Give an example, maybe that will help. In my opinion with information it's easier to put the teams in the right spot, with random luck of the draw sure you may be "creating everyone equal" but most of the top teams at each tournament have earned their way there. For instance in Austin if it was Us, NYSH, JKID, Flying V, and Fully Loaded in the same pool and then Lights Out, Cobra Kai, Whiskey Richard, El Guapo, MMS and then confused kixx, cleverly disguised, I'd Hit It, we'll spot you 10, Best Fwiends and What Happend. I think that would be a bigger injustice than the # 7 ranked team ranked #10 due to bad information. Sure it'd be great to guarantee that we play great competition but the team goal of the tournament is first and foremost to win and secondly to play great competition.

[Zer0ne]

Because the high man on the totem poll has EARNED the advantage. Whether this be based on somebody thinking their good, somebody knowing their good, or past wins and losses there is a reason that they are ranked that high. The answer that people have been hinting at "message board talk" is stupid. If you sheep are that easily swayed then you have no business in the poll. The message board is helpful knowing which teams will bring what players.

So your answer to my questions then is, yes, you believe that some teams should be given an advantage before the tournament starts? At this point, I'm just looking for a yes or no answer. From what you've said above, it sounds like you believe teams should be given an advantage.

Before you answer though, lets make sure we understand that taylor making a teams schedule in pool play as easy as possible is definitely an advantage. The distinction here is that we are purposely making sure this happens, and you agree with it.

[Captain_Relax]

Because the high man on the totem poll has EARNED the advantage. Whether this be based on somebody thinking their good, somebody knowing their good, or past wins and losses there is a reason that they are ranked that high. The answer that people have been hinting at "message board talk" is stupid. If you sheep are that easily swayed then you have no business in the poll. The message board is helpful knowing which teams will bring what players.

So your answer to my questions then is, yes, you believe that some teams should be given an advantage before the tournament starts? At this point, I'm just looking for a yes or no answer. From what you've said above, it sounds like you believe teams should be given an advantage.

Before you answer though, lets make sure we understand that taylor making a teams schedule in pool play as easy as possible is definitely an advantage. The distinction here is that we are purposely making sure this happens, and you agree with it.

Oh, then absolutely yes. Either way SOMEONE is going to get an advantage, there will always be an advantage, whether you do it random or rank teams with a system. In my opinion rather than leaving the advantage to chance it should be done in a way that gives the teams that have proven themselves and are viewed by their peers as the top teams the advantage.

[j22201]

by Zer0ne » April 17th, 2012, 9:04 am

Captain_Relax wrote:

Because the high man on the totem poll has EARNED the advantage. Whether this be based on somebody thinking their good, somebody knowing their good, or past wins and losses there is a reason that they are ranked that high. The answer that people have been hinting at "message board talk" is stupid. If you sheep are that easily swayed then you have no business in the poll. The message board is helpful knowing which teams will bring what players.


So your answer to my questions then is, yes, you believe that some teams should be given an advantage before the tournament starts? At this point, I'm just looking for a yes or no answer. From what you've said above, it sounds like you believe teams should be given an advantage.

Before you answer though, lets make sure we understand that taylor making a teams schedule in pool play as easy as possible is definitely an advantage. The distinction here is that we are purposely making sure this happens, and you agree with it.

Zero, is there any online footage of your team playing? I wasn't @ SFKO and wanted to see if there was any film.

[Captain_Relax]

Because the high man on the totem poll has EARNED the advantage. Whether this be based on somebody thinking their good, somebody knowing their good, or past wins and losses there is a reason that they are ranked that high. The answer that people have been hinting at "message board talk" is stupid. If you sheep are that easily swayed then you have no business in the poll. The message board is helpful knowing which teams will bring what players.

So your answer to my questions then is, yes, you believe that some teams should be given an advantage before the tournament starts? At this point, I'm just looking for a yes or no answer. From what you've said above, it sounds like you believe teams should be given an advantage.

Before you answer though, lets make sure we understand that taylor making a teams schedule in pool play as easy as possible is definitely an advantage. The distinction here is that we are purposely making sure this happens, and you agree with it.

To me it's all about avoiding the situation I listed above in the Austin example.

[Static]

I agree with your point, I'm not saying it's perfect, I just think it's better than doing a random draw based on nothing.

Random draw is based on nothing, the "rankings" are generally based (after the top 2-3 teams on generally bad information) I dont think no information is really much different than incorrect information.

Sure it's not a 100% exact science but to say most of it is bad information I'm not sure that's true. Give an example, maybe that will help. In my opinion with information it's easier to put the teams in the right spot, with random luck of the draw sure you may be "creating everyone equal" but most of the top teams at each tournament have earned their way there. For instance in Austin if it was Us, NYSH, JKID, Flying V, and Fully Loaded in the same pool and then Lights Out, Cobra Kai, Whiskey Richard, El Guapo, MMS and then confused kixx, cleverly disguised, I'd Hit It, we'll spot you 10, Best Fwiends and What Happend. I think that would be a bigger injustice than the # 7 ranked team ranked #10 due to bad information. Sure it'd be great to guarantee that we play great competition but the team goal of the tournament is first and foremost to win and secondly to play great competition.

Obviously that is the worst case example, but I agree completely. The best team still has to do well enough to advance out of pool play. It just doesn't make a lot of sense to have all the top tier games in pool play (1) just to have lack luster semis and finals afterwards. Part of getting better is playing and watching top tier games. Videos are nice and I love that tons of top tier games are available online, but nothing replaces game experience. Everyone on my first FC team remembers JKI and exactly what we did wrong.

[Zer0ne]

Because the high man on the totem poll has EARNED the advantage. Whether this be based on somebody thinking their good, somebody knowing their good, or past wins and losses there is a reason that they are ranked that high. The answer that people have been hinting at "message board talk" is stupid. If you sheep are that easily swayed then you have no business in the poll. The message board is helpful knowing which teams will bring what players.

So your answer to my questions then is, yes, you believe that some teams should be given an advantage before the tournament starts? At this point, I'm just looking for a yes or no answer. From what you've said above, it sounds like you believe teams should be given an advantage.

Before you answer though, lets make sure we understand that taylor making a teams schedule in pool play as easy as possible is definitely an advantage. The distinction here is that we are purposely making sure this happens, and you agree with it.

Oh, then absolutely yes. Either way SOMEONE is going to get an advantage, there will always be an advantage, whether you do it random or rank teams with a system. In my opinion rather than leaving the advantage to chance it should be done in a way that gives the teams that have proven themselves and are viewed by their peers as the top teams the advantage.

Fair enough. And again, I haven't decided how I feel one way or the other, but I am trying to narrow down how others feel. The reality is that the teams who are not going to be ranked high are going to be against seeding and separating the top seeded teams and the top seeded teams are going to be in support of it. Everybody wants to win and any team that is competitive is going to take any inch they can get.

[Zer0ne]

by Zer0ne » April 17th, 2012, 9:04 am

Captain_Relax wrote:

Because the high man on the totem poll has EARNED the advantage. Whether this be based on somebody thinking their good, somebody knowing their good, or past wins and losses there is a reason that they are ranked that high. The answer that people have been hinting at "message board talk" is stupid. If you sheep are that easily swayed then you have no business in the poll. The message board is helpful knowing which teams will bring what players.


So your answer to my questions then is, yes, you believe that some teams should be given an advantage before the tournament starts? At this point, I'm just looking for a yes or no answer. From what you've said above, it sounds like you believe teams should be given an advantage.

Before you answer though, lets make sure we understand that taylor making a teams schedule in pool play as easy as possible is definitely an advantage. The distinction here is that we are purposely making sure this happens, and you agree with it.

Zero, is there any online footage of your team playing? I wasn't @ SFKO and wanted to see if there was any film.

Unfortunately there isn't. There was a camera at the game between FL and us, but I don't know if they were recording, and if they were where the footage is.

[Captain_Relax]

Because the high man on the totem poll has EARNED the advantage. Whether this be based on somebody thinking their good, somebody knowing their good, or past wins and losses there is a reason that they are ranked that high. The answer that people have been hinting at "message board talk" is stupid. If you sheep are that easily swayed then you have no business in the poll. The message board is helpful knowing which teams will bring what players.

So your answer to my questions then is, yes, you believe that some teams should be given an advantage before the tournament starts? At this point, I'm just looking for a yes or no answer. From what you've said above, it sounds like you believe teams should be given an advantage.

Before you answer though, lets make sure we understand that taylor making a teams schedule in pool play as easy as possible is definitely an advantage. The distinction here is that we are purposely making sure this happens, and you agree with it.

Oh, then absolutely yes. Either way SOMEONE is going to get an advantage, there will always be an advantage, whether you do it random or rank teams with a system. In my opinion rather than leaving the advantage to chance it should be done in a way that gives the teams that have proven themselves and are viewed by their peers as the top teams the advantage.

Fair enough. And again, I haven't decided how I feel one way or the other, but I am trying to narrow down how others feel. The reality is that the teams who are not going to be ranked high are going to be against seeding and separating the top seeded teams and the top seeded teams are going to be in support of it. Everybody wants to win and any team that is competitive is going to take any inch they can get.

No, definitely no hard feelings, a good debate is what these boards are for . Definitely excited to see you guys in action I've heard great things, and you'll be happy coming to the best city in the country

[2_easy]

such as every time pool draw discussion happens for each tourney.

[Horses and Genitals]

Once the political trolling started I stopped reading. Can someone update me on who the communist teams are? I could definitely see the Meatballs as the USSR Evil Empire team.

MBK is Drago for not teaching me how to bunt.


EDIT: That being said, what j22010r478349 said. Why do you hate top teams, Tweasy? Why? WHY?!?!??! There is enough information on these teams to rank them somewhat accurately. And now people are citing a team beating my team from last year ("Simon's team") as an accomplishment, yet our team was not good. At all.

The only example I can think of were people hyping up Ultra teams, carrying the incarnation of Ninja Kitties that we brought to SFKO to an undeserved ranking. And then we got beat anyway. The free kickball market won out! Probably because we were all high on HPV vaccines.

[2_easy]

because they whine like bitches

[Captain_Relax]

because they whine like bitches

I don't know who whines and haven't seen much. If anything when pools come out I usually hear nothing but excitement. Sure there will be a named Pool of Death but all I ever remember hearing is teams being excited about getting to compete against the other teams.

[Typod]

FTR I don't actually care who's in what pool. I am just easily trolled. I do find the classic bragging/secrecy about a teams tourney roster on here to be annoying though.

[JimmyB]

The purpose of round-robin (pool play) is NOT to make sure the pre-determined best teams advance. It's to see WHO the best teams are on that day. In my opinion the top 3 teams (NYSH, JKID, and Fully Loaded have EARNED that distinction) should be separated, and all other teams should have some level of randomness.

Before I post this next part, note that I don't necessarily think my team is at this point yet, but I think we could have been there before the GKO tournament... But I do think there ARE teams at this point:

With the exception of Flying V and Relax, you don't see any second tier teams on here talking about themselves that much (Flying V rarely does, but last year that seemed to be a priority), so you take a team like Cobra Kai, who made it to the Elite 8 in FC the last year it was the main championship, and then followed it up by an elite 8 appearance in a tough 2011 SFKO (blowing a late game 1-0 lead to PA to lose 2-1). But they are not present on the message boards, and you have no idea if they are better or worse, yet you assume they are not as good as a team like Lights Out, or a 1/3 MMS, 2/3 ninja kitties... or even a Flyign V team that sounds like it's not their normal squad.. Whiskey Richard, who we beat last year in SFKO like 6-0 or something, and they've acknowledged not having a full team..

TLDR... but anyways... we should be giving the teams who are TRYING to have a breakthrough tournament a shot at getting a descent break. They will still have to earn it by playing tough teams in elimination and eventually everything should balance out. Not saying there should be pools of death like NYC, but I like the random draw idea after the top seeds get split up.

[Captain_Relax]

The purpose of round-robin (pool play) is NOT to make sure the pre-determined best teams advance. It's to see WHO the best teams are on that day. In my opinion the top 3 teams (NYSH, JKID, and Fully Loaded have EARNED that distinction) should be separated, and all other teams should have some level of randomness.

Before I post this next part, note that I don't necessarily think my team is at this point yet, but I think we could have been there before the GKO tournament... But I do think there ARE teams at this point:

With the exception of Flying V and Relax, you don't see any second tier teams on here talking about themselves that much (Flying V rarely does, but last year that seemed to be a priority), so you take a team like Cobra Kai, who made it to the Elite 8 in FC the last year it was the main championship, and then followed it up by an elite 8 appearance in a tough 2011 SFKO (blowing a late game 1-0 lead to PA to lose 2-1). But they are not present on the message boards, and you have no idea if they are better or worse, yet you assume they are not as good as a team like Lights Out, or a 1/3 MMS, 2/3 ninja kitties... or even a Flyign V team that sounds like it's not their normal squad.. Whiskey Richard, who we beat last year in SFKO like 6-0 or something, and they've acknowledged not having a full team..

I agree, I think Cobra Kai is going to be quality at this tournament, I don't think anyone thinks they'll come and not do well. I would put them ahead of WR for sure, MMS seems to have talent and Lights Out impressed everyone who saw them in SFKO so I'd put Cobra Kai right there with them. I think anyone in the top (Cobra Kai included) of this tournament can beat anyone. This tournament is up for grabs IMO.

[Duff]

Certain people keep mentioning how the standard pool setup is built to favor the 'perceived' better teams have an easier path, but have failed to mention how it can also provide easier paths for the perceived weaker teams. Instead of being possibly tossed into a randomized stacked pool, you'll more then likely be thrown into a pool with one elite, one solid, and one or two mediocre to crap teams. If you are an unknown, but good, team, that should set you up for a 2-2 record or better (our team from last year in SFKO comes to mind).

Pools aren't built to guide certain teams to the finals. Pools are built to evenly distribute competition in an effort to give EVERY team the most similar experience in competitive play as possible. Not using past information to assess this balance is just irresponsible. You need to keep in mind how well this community assesses new info on the fly. A team like Lights Out, who didn't make it out of pool play at SFKO, was still recognized as an improving team that is already getting credit for it. To say certain teams aren't getting respect is a misnomer, as the ability to give respect has to be based on some sort of interaction in the first place.

I personally think the draft is a great idea, just because it would make the meet and greet Badass without sacrificing the even spread of the pool quality, barring a kamikaze team picking a loaded pool on purpose.

[Typod]

I agree, I think Cobra Kai is going to be quality at this tournament

This is the kind of "information" I'm talking about.

What leads you to believe this? Cobra Kai was in both our pools in FC 2 years ago and were not impressive at all. They then went to SFKO last year and had one elimination win against UTZZZ which isn't necessarily an impressive win (They were 3-1 in their pool, but as stated on here by many sources, pool play records mean nothing). That was it for their year. Have they played in a tourney since?

[FlyingV]

Certain people keep mentioning how the standard pool setup is built to favor the 'perceived' better teams have an easier path, but have failed to mention how it can also provide easier paths for the perceived weaker teams. Instead of being possibly tossed into a randomized stacked pool, you'll more then likely be thrown into a pool with one elite, one solid, and one or two mediocre to crap teams. If you are an unknown, but good, team, that should set you up for a 2-2 record or better (our team from last year in SFKO comes to mind).

Pools aren't built to guide certain teams to the finals. Pools are built to evenly distribute competition in an effort to give EVERY team the most similar experience in competitive play as possible. Not using past information to assess this balance is just irresponsible. You need to keep in mind how well this community assesses new info on the fly. A team like Lights Out, who didn't make it out of pool play at SFKO, was still recognized as an improving team that is already getting credit for it. To say certain teams aren't getting respect is a misnomer, as the ability to give respect has to be based on some sort of interaction in the first place.

I personally think the draft is a great idea, just because it would make the meet and greet Badass without sacrificing the even spread of the pool quality, barring a kamikaze team picking a loaded pool on purpose.

[Captain_Relax]

I agree, I think Cobra Kai is going to be quality at this tournament

This is the kind of "information" I'm talking about.

What leads you to believe this? Cobra Kai was in both our pools in FC 2 years ago and were not impressive at all. They then went to SFKO last year and had one elimination win against UTZZZ which isn't necessarily an impressive win (They were 3-1 in their pool, but as stated on here by many sources, pool play records mean nothing). That was it for their year. Have they played in a tourney since?

Yeah they were in our pool and I wouldn't say they weren't impressive at all, I didn't think they were great but they weren't bad. They beat us, granted it was in no way a representation of our team, but they still beat a decent team.

I didn't say they'd win the tournament and I think they'll be fortunate to get out of pool play because there are alot of good teams coming. I think they'll be right there with the two teams I've named based on what they've done in the past and what I have personally seen.

[Typod]

Pools are built to evenly distribute competition in an effort to give EVERY team the most similar experience in competitive play as possible.

Socialism.