[GKO] Possible Brackets/Pool Play Scenario

[btaylor]

When will the pools/schedule be announced?

Meet and Greet!

See y'all there!

Stop the madness! Announce the pools before Friday!

I agree. Or at least announce the format/schedule beforehand so we can make arrangements. I wont be in Atlanta in time for the meet & greet.

[FlyingV]

When will the pools/schedule be announced?

Meet and Greet!

See y'all there!

Stop the madness! Announce the pools before Friday!

I agree. Or at least announce the format/schedule beforehand so we can make arrangements. I wont be in Atlanta in time for the meet & greet.

Format will be announced.

[crAsh]

I agree with Beil. More pools, fewer issues with "what went wrong" and "who got screwed" and teams with the lowest standings after pool play go to PLAY-IN games before elims start.

Semantics.

Um, and no removing of "lunch" sheesh...

[JimmyB]

Who all is on the Team x besides Patty O, Pdunc, Bile, ?

Kellen and 2 girls from cobra kai, and one or two girls from booty. Not sure who else.

[Bellman]

The 2-pool system that Trey and Jelly suggested (with snake seeding) is theoretically superior and it should realistically be used at every tourney where possible. Bile's 3-pool suggestion gives the top seeds going in an advantage in SOS in pool play and therefore an advantage in achieving a first round bye in elims. The purpose of pre-tourney seeding is to even everyone's competition and chances, not give them an advantage due to past success. Everyone pays the same amount to be in these tournaments.

I didn't think anyone was actually paying attention when I described that system. Thanks Trey and Jelly.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

[Kickin]

I think I like the 2 pools of 6. It's even for everyone. In Austin I would have loved to do that but we had 17 which screwed everything up and kept things unbalanced. The 2 pools of 6 keeps everyone at a normal schedule with one bye. I think you use less refs too so it'll save you the stress of looking for 12 refs. I believe you only need 10.

Please announce the format before Friday but I'll be there for our schedule at the meet & greet!

[btaylor]

I think I like the 2 pools of 6. It's even for everyone. In Austin I would have loved to do that but we had 17 which screwed everything up and kept things unbalanced. The 2 pools of 6 keeps everyone at a normal schedule with one bye. I think you use less refs too so it'll save you the stress of looking for 12 refs. I believe you only need 10.

Please announce the format before Friday but I'll be there for our schedule at the meet & greet!

Jon, the only league you play in is WAKA? There's a league down there called Ultra, you should look into it. I heard there's some decent teams.

[Bile]

I'd like to address some of the responses above regarding the two possible formats for this weekend.

First, there is no such thing as "fair" or "even" when laying out a tournament. Do you think the Euro Cup going on right now has "fair" pools? If every tournament is laid out to be "fair" then why does the term "Pool of Death" even exist? I'm glad you agree... there is no such thing as "even" pools in a tournament... only the attempt to make them as even as possible given the information available.

Given that each team has to pay to enter this tournament, and you're basing your pools on the rankings of the tournament director (with insight from captains, perhaps? How much do they know about each other team? I mean really?), there should be an effort made to correct errors made in tournaments of the past.

Take the PAKC that was just completed. It was extremely well run and I have no complaints. That being said, however, I can think of three teams who should and probably DO have complaints. Foot Snipers, Runnin' Rebels, and Boston Massacre.

These teams were ranked in such a way going into the tournament as to end up in what many believed to be the "Pool of Death."

This pool consisted of the following teams:
OSC
Foot Snipers
Deja'Vu Dynasty
Boston Massacre
Runnin' Rebels

In pool play OSC managed to hold course and go 4-0 as predicted. This means every other team started 0-1. The remaining four teams then proceded to beat the shit out of each other and go 2-2, 2-2, 2-2, and 0-4. Boston Massacre, while 0-4, played OSC to a 0-1 loss, 4-6 loss vs Deja'Vu, 4-6 loss vs Runnin' Rebs, and in their only let-down game of the day lost 0-10 to Foot Snipers.

They finished the tournament in 14th position. I would argue they were MUCH better than this and were screwed by the pool they got stuck in by the pre-tournament rankings.

The Runnin' Rebs and Foot Snipers both finished 2-2. They did NOT advance to single elim, however, because BSB and Penn Pounders (in my opinion) had a MUCH easier road through pool play and managed to give up fewer runs (in the case of BSB) or squeeze out a tie instead of a second loss (in the case of P.P.).

Foot Snipers lost to OSC badly in their first game. After that, their only loss was to the runnin' rebels 4-5. For those of you who don't know, the Runnin' Rebels are a Maryland Recess league team who play weekly against the likes of Shockwave, Deja'Vu Dynasty, J-Cru, among other proven circuit tournament teams. This is not a crap team, and they were vastly underranked before the tourney due to ignorance. The Foot Snipers, in my opinion, were also screwed by the pools. They did not advance based on runs against.

The Runnin' Rebels, as previously mentioned, come from a brutal league in Maryland where they play top teams weekly. They were ranked 13th coming into the tournament, and as such were placed in the "Pool of Death." They lost to Deja'Vu 3-5, and OSC 3-11. They beat the Foot Snipers and Boston Massacre. They did not advance based on runs against.

By contrast, BSB had the following result in Pool Play and advanced...

Loss vs Shockwave 0-10
Loss vs NYSH 0-2
Win vs Lebco Legends (who?) 6-1
Win vs Rockstar Lifestyle 7-1

And lastly, the Penninsula Pounders, who are well known by everyone on the boards, had the following road through pool play and advanced...

Win vs J-Cru 4-3
Loss vs Lights Out 3-15
Win vs LiU 4-0
TIE vs Mo'Tussin 8-8



In summary, I'm not saying that the Penninsula Pounders did not deserve to have a chance to advance... because they played well enough to beat Lock it Up, which was impressive. I do believe, however, that BSB beat no one of significance (Rockstar was on fumes by the fourth game, and was already a very low ranked team) all day, but managed to advance over the likes of Foot Snipers, Runnin' Rebels, and Boston Massacre who all had to play 4 incredibly tough games in pool play.

If we had done the format I suggest, here is how it would have played out... (even with horrible pools based on the "expert" seedings in attempt to make them "even" and "fair" for everyone)

Teams receiving a pass into the Round of 8:
#1) NYSH
#2) OSC
#3) Lights Out
#4) Shockwave

Play-in Games:

#5) Penn Pounders
vs
#12) Rockstar Lifestyle

#6) Lock it Up
vs
#11) Mo' Tussin

#7) BSB
vs
#10) Runnin' Rebels

#8) Deja'Vu
vs
#9) Foot Snipers

#1 NYSH plays the lowest seed remaining after Play-in
#2 OSC plays the second-lowest seed remaining after Play-in
#3 Lights Out plays the second-highest seed remaining after Play-in
#4 Shockwave plays the highest seed remaining after Play-in


In the end it may work out very much the same... but at the very least, after a shitty pool-play experience for those in the pool with two highly under valued teams (Runnin' Rebels and Boston Massacre), they are afforded the opportunity to play their way into Pool Play.

I can't speak for the Foot Snipers or Runnin' Rebels, but I would imagine they would have less complaint had the format been the above. (I'm not suggesting this format would have worked at PACK... rather, I am disproving that pre-tournament seedings will provide "fair" and "even" pools... and that Strength of Schedule based on pre-tournamet rankings are is a utterly worthless statistic. It's based 100% on opinion.)


The argument that teams should not be rewarded for past tournaments is also shit. Seeding teams beforehand and putting them into "even" pools is just another way of doing that very same thing... rewarding teams for prior tournament results. Do you think Panik Attack and Meatballs aren't being rewared for past tournaments when they manage to NEVER see each other in pool-play? Yes. Absolutely they are. Rightfully so.

This will be my last comment on the subject. I leave it up to the tournament director to decide what is most "fair" for all of the teams traveling to the tourney this weekend.

Bile out.

[FlyingV]

Bile,

I agree with all your points and think that if seeding had been done correctly that most of the gripes wouldn't have happened.

With that being said... With the teams attending GKO I don't think we'll have this problem. There are 4 established Circuit teams and 8 that are pretty much on the same playing field.

Format- 2 pools of 6.

Reason- If we had done 3 pools of 4 teams would have lost out on (20) points for a potential win and (100) points for making elimination. With all teams make elimination there would be no bonus points.

Can't wait til this weekend... should be a great tournament.

[Hollywood B]

That format would be real annoying, because there are already too many breaks. Sitting around waiting for a play-in team would suck and would probably mean we don't play a full 6 innings in the finals game because it would get dark.

I can easily see how one team from Pool A possibly could have advanced over BSB, but that is the only possible argument and the same thing happens at basically every tournament ever. Everyone has had to deal with it at some point.

[Bile]

Fair enough. Your tourney, your choice.

However, you're wrong on the 100 points for single elims. In my format only 8 teams make single elims... semantics. The Play-In games are essentially tie-breakers. Take the shitty three and four-way ties after pool-play out of the discussion and they simply play the tie-breakers rather than going to runs against, etc.

But, those who play well enough shall advance. Let the games begin.

[krabbas]

Seems like a very well thought out opinion. And there is some truth to your points.

I've been saying for a while that the seeding process for most tourneys is flawed. The best process IMO, is the "World Cup" style. Seed the top teams in each pool to separate them and then randomly draw teams to fill the rest.

[Bile]

Hollywood...

Come on man. Possibly?? Do you think Deja'Vu was an 8 seed? Did you watch BSB play at all on the day? I'm not saying my idea fixes all problems, but here's how I think it would have played out even with the shitty pools...

Runnin' Rebs beat BSB to advance to elims.
Deja'Vu beats Foot Snipeys to advance to elims.
Penn Pounders beat Rockstar to advance to elims.
LiU beats Mo'Tussin to advance to elims.

#1 NYSH
vs
#10 Runnin' Rebels

#2 OSC
vs
#8 Deja'Vu

#3 Lights Out
vs
#6 LiU

#4 Shockwave
vs
#5 Penn Pounders


Very little difference, but rather than play the #1 seed and eventual champions, Deja'Vu plays the #2 seed OSC in elims... and rather than have to sit out, Runnin' Rebels get to play their way in and face the #1 seed NYSH. The rest remains the same.

In regard to the sitting around, how is it different than having a BYE round in pool play? It isn't.

Also, delays come about because of tourney organization, not because of format. JKO had the same format as PAKC, yet we stood around all day at JKO, and at PAKC we finished the tourney pretty much on time.

[Kickbot]

Did you watch BSB play at all on the day?

We played BSB. They are good and played us close.

[FlyingV]

Fair enough. Your tourney, your choice.

However, you're wrong on the 100 points for single elims. In my format only 8 teams make single elims... semantics. The Play-In games are essentially tie-breakers. Take the shitty three and four-way ties after pool-play out of the discussion and they simply play the tie-breakers rather than going to runs against, etc.

But, those who play well enough shall advance. Let the games begin.

Then Admin and Shane are wrong... we talked about it on Saturday after the tournament.

[btaylor]

Bile,

I agree with all your points and think that if seeding had been done correctly that most of the gripes wouldn't have happened.

With that being said... With the teams attending GKO I don't think we'll have this problem. There are 4 established Circuit teams and 8 that are pretty much on the same playing field.

Format- 2 pools of 6.

Reason- If we had done 3 pools of 4 teams would have lost out on (20) points for a potential win and (100) points for making elimination. With all teams make elimination there would be no bonus points.

Can't wait til this weekend... should be a great tournament.

So, two pools of six with games at 9, 10, 11, and 12? Top 8 make single elims? Are there any byes in a pool of 6? Will there be cake?

[Hollywood B]

Yes I saw BSB play. We played them, and I think they are a solid team. Like I said, maybe one of either Rebels or Snipeys should have got in over BSB, but it would not have made much of a difference.

Also, at PAKC, everyone would still have had to have their byes since there are pools of 5, and then there would have been another hour of sitting around for the play-in games. NYSH and OSC would have sat for more than 2 hours waiting for the elite 8 to start, and the finals would not have been finished in daylight.

[The Scorekeeper]

Seems like a very well thought out opinion. And there is some truth to your points.

I've been saying for a while that the seeding process for most tourneys is flawed. The best process IMO, is the "World Cup" style. Seed the top teams in each pool to separate them and then randomly draw teams to fill the rest.

they did seed the top two teams in each pool (based on a poll of captains) and as far as i can tell, everything else looks just about random, with the exception of giving lebco the #15 seed. i wasn't in on the seeding or pool distribution, but just looking at the results, it wouldn't surprise me at all to find out that it was random selection for 7-14.

[PittsBurgheR]

Thanks for the input on these seedings.

and yes Bile, we (Rockstar) were gassed and our charger was hurt.

We had a sub for C/CH that came down with the stomach virus this week, and had a 102+ fever hit him hard on friday. So he stayed behind. I wish we had him, but he wouldnt have added much in the state he was in.

But our two new C/CH guys got a great workout, and will be back for more in DC. Where we'll finally have some f'n subs for depth in the infield.


Good luck to you all in GA. I'll be checking scores on my phone in between innings in our division playoffs.

[krabbas]

Seems like a very well thought out opinion. And there is some truth to your points.

I've been saying for a while that the seeding process for most tourneys is flawed. The best process IMO, is the "World Cup" style. Seed the top teams in each pool to separate them and then randomly draw teams to fill the rest.

they did seed the top two teams in each pool (based on a poll of captains) and as far as i can tell, everything else looks just about random, with the exception of giving lebco the #15 seed. i wasn't in on the seeding or pool distribution, but just looking at the results, it wouldn't surprise me at all to find out that it was random selection for 7-14.

Ah. Makes sense. In that case, it was pretty fair in the method if not the outcome. Honestly, in these small 10-15 team tourneys, there is not a lot of "pools of cake".

[Kickin]

Even as in terms of SOS is what I meant. As a tourney coordinator we give the caps a say bc we feel we need to especially if you're playing in the tourney but I can tell you this: there are those that do a decent job ranking teams, doing their homework to figure out who's coming for the teams, etc and then there are those team caps that have no idea and vote out of loyalty for their team or another local team or by picking out of a hat. I saw some crazy rankings that skued things pretty badly. In some cases we stepped in and did what made sense and in others, when it wasn't too bad, we let it fly.

That definitely has a hand in how teams are ranked.

[antw00]

In full agreement with Beil (except the prediction of Deja Vu over Snipers after we just took them down). That pool A had solid teams that shouldve made it to elims. Maybe the seeding committee was the same crew that judged the pacquiao fight. We'll reconsider next year. But back on topic, ATL will be the tiits and well run and organized as it was last year. Good luck

[Kickbot]

This is one reason pools should be announced the week before, to let the kickball community weigh in on it and help correct imbalances. This forum is an excellent resource.

[YourPness]

I'd like to address some of the responses above regarding the two possible formats for this weekend.

First, there is no such thing as "fair" or "even" when laying out a tournament. Do you think the Euro Cup going on right now has "fair" pools? If every tournament is laid out to be "fair" then why does the term "Pool of Death" even exist? I'm glad you agree... there is no such thing as "even" pools in a tournament... only the attempt to make them as even as possible given the information available.

Given that each team has to pay to enter this tournament, and you're basing your pools on the rankings of the tournament director (with insight from captains, perhaps? How much do they know about each other team? I mean really?), there should be an effort made to correct errors made in tournaments of the past.

Take the PAKC that was just completed. It was extremely well run and I have no complaints. That being said, however, I can think of three teams who should and probably DO have complaints. Foot Snipers, Runnin' Rebels, and Boston Massacre.

These teams were ranked in such a way going into the tournament as to end up in what many believed to be the "Pool of Death."

This pool consisted of the following teams:
OSC
Foot Snipers
Deja'Vu Dynasty
Boston Massacre
Runnin' Rebels

In pool play OSC managed to hold course and go 4-0 as predicted. This means every other team started 0-1. The remaining four teams then proceded to beat the shit out of each other and go 2-2, 2-2, 2-2, and 0-4. Boston Massacre, while 0-4, played OSC to a 0-1 loss, 4-6 loss vs Deja'Vu, 4-6 loss vs Runnin' Rebs, and in their only let-down game of the day lost 0-10 to Foot Snipers.

They finished the tournament in 14th position. I would argue they were MUCH better than this and were screwed by the pool they got stuck in by the pre-tournament rankings.

The Runnin' Rebs and Foot Snipers both finished 2-2. They did NOT advance to single elim, however, because BSB and Penn Pounders (in my opinion) had a MUCH easier road through pool play and managed to give up fewer runs (in the case of BSB) or squeeze out a tie instead of a second loss (in the case of P.P.).

Foot Snipers lost to OSC badly in their first game. After that, their only loss was to the runnin' rebels 4-5. For those of you who don't know, the Runnin' Rebels are a Maryland Recess league team who play weekly against the likes of Shockwave, Deja'Vu Dynasty, J-Cru, among other proven circuit tournament teams. This is not a crap team, and they were vastly underranked before the tourney due to ignorance. The Foot Snipers, in my opinion, were also screwed by the pools. They did not advance based on runs against.

The Runnin' Rebels, as previously mentioned, come from a brutal league in Maryland where they play top teams weekly. They were ranked 13th coming into the tournament, and as such were placed in the "Pool of Death." They lost to Deja'Vu 3-5, and OSC 3-11. They beat the Foot Snipers and Boston Massacre. They did not advance based on runs against.

Thank you for saying all of this Beil.
It makes us feel a little bit better too (Boston Massacre).
I would like to rename Pool A the "Pool of Blood".
We played Foot Snipers and beat ourselves. J.C.'s pitching was also RUINING us. Hats off to you J.C.
We played OSC and could have tied or won the bottom of the 5th if Sadler's kick were 2 feet higher. It was great playing you guys. I have the utmost respect for your talent and strategery (yeah, I know it's not a word).
Deja Vu played some awesome ball like they did all day and we couldn't pull it through.
At 0-3 we knew that we wouldn't make Elims so we played our D squad to make sure everyone got a chance to play. Took out our stronger players too (not they really needed rest). I felt that Goombay was gassed at that point because we could have actually won that game if we wanted to by subbing in our stronger pitcher.
All I have to say is
D.J. - Shame on you for letting me kick 2 HR's off you. That was NOT right AND the 2nd one hit a serious wind current cuz in the video (which I'll post soon enough) your fielder ran over, lined up and the ball just continued another 500 ft past him. Messed up. Funny thing was that I was prepared to bench myself all day due to a minor hamstring injury a few weeks ago.

I hope that doesn't sound like excuses. Pool A was tough.
Things to note.
A - Bobby Pace (FS) can kick the ever loving shit out of that orange ball.
B - Pat O'Brien (OSC) could technically be arrested for a chest pass (assault with a deadly weapon)
C - IF the bases are loaded, there's a force out at 3rd and 1 man left on base, there is NO way that 3 runs could have scored!!!
D - Goombay Runnin' Rebels had at least 2 girls who could legitimately kick my ass. AND D.J. has the Best/Biggest smile in the whole Circuit. You rock.

See all of you in GKO when the Party Rockers beat Panik 10-0 in the Finals (sorry, SOMEONE has to beat them)

[lovags]

I don't think there is any scenario that will be fair....One or two teams may get screwed, but you can change all that by winning on the field.....We are a newer team to circuit play....we are having a blast traveling and can't wait to do some damage to the field in GKO......You win you advance...Playing the top tier teams makes u better and if u lose shows what your team is missing.....If u win, then u throw a monkey wrench into the elimination bracket.....Can't wait...

[antw00]

I don't think there is any scenario that will be fair....One or two teams may get screwed, but you can change all that by winning on the field.....We are a newer team to circuit play....we are having a blast traveling and can't wait to do some damage to the field in GKO......You win you advance...Playing the top tier teams makes u better and if u lose shows what your team is missing.....If u win, then u throw a monkey wrench into the elimination bracket.....Can't wait...

this is all true about winning out, but your newness shows. when teams continue to attend tourneys and feel they are in the pool of death, they MAY stop attending because they feel it is a waste of money.

[NoShoes]

I don't think there is any scenario that will be fair....One or two teams may get screwed, but you can change all that by winning on the field.....We are a newer team to circuit play....we are having a blast traveling and can't wait to do some damage to the field in GKO......You win you advance...Playing the top tier teams makes u better and if u lose shows what your team is missing.....If u win, then u throw a monkey wrench into the elimination bracket.....Can't wait...

this is all true about winning out, but your newness shows. when teams continue to attend tourneys and feel they are in the pool of death, they MAY stop attending because they feel it is a waste of money.

This.

I'm also all for posting the schedule/pools to 365 in advance to correct imbalances. Good point, Oakley.