Subsitution Rule

[The Slam]

Just so it has its own thread. I'm curious to what people think are the pros/cons. Here is how it works in my softball leagues using ASA rules (which allows 1 re-entry, though that might be too much for everyone to handle):

A. Any player may be substituted or replaces and re-entered once, providing players occupy the same batting positions whenever in the line-up and are of the same sex
B. The starting player and their substitute may not be in the line-up at the same time

I hear people say on here its confusing, hard to keep track of etc. It really isn't. I've played numerous softball seasons and it's never been an issue. If I as captain want Jon to bat for Fred, I just tell the other team and tell the ump. That's it, theres no arguing. We've exchanged lineups before the game, so its a non-event.

Pros:
- Allows you to substitute for someone who gets injured, preventing serious injury
- Allows less experienced players or less skilled players more opportunity to play (yes I'm being selfish here, but this means if I'm sitting a game and we're up 6-0 after 5, I can be put in the game for Bryant and get an at bat). This to me will encourage more players to travel. Anyone who says this means less people will travel is wrong. You don't need to sit anyone if you don't want to - so you can continue playing just as you have every other tournament. It's a choice. And if you think it gives a team an advantage thats wrong, because teams already sit players, so the only change would be that the player sat (usually a less skilled player) will get a chance to play and increase their skills. Oh and it also might make that 6-0 blow-out more competitive.
- More strategy goes into it

Cons
- Might be difficult to keep track of for some people
- Some people like less strategy

[Jared It Up!]

wow. I love the cons.

less strategy without a sub rule?

[The Slam]

wow. I love the cons.

less strategy without a sub rule?

Give me some cons.

[Zak]

By the Softball rules are people not in the field in the line up? Cause that's the way it comes off.

[The Slam]

They can go in the field, and the person they came in for can not.

[JellyDogg]

I like how the possibility maybe of getting an at-bat late in a blowout game is something that would encourage people to travel. I can't wait to use that as a selling point.

[machinegunkelly]

Just so it has its own thread. I'm curious to what people think are the pros/cons. Here is how it works in my softball leagues using ASA rules (which allows 1 re-entry, though that might be too much for everyone to handle):

A. Any player may be substituted or replaces and re-entered once, providing players occupy the same batting positions whenever in the line-up and are of the same sex
B. The starting player and their substitute may not be in the line-up at the same time

I hear people say on here its confusing, hard to keep track of etc. It really isn't. I've played numerous softball seasons and it's never been an issue. If I as captain want Jon to bat for Fred, I just tell the other team and tell the ump. That's it, theres no arguing. We've exchanged lineups before the game, so its a non-event.

Pros:
- Allows you to substitute for someone who gets injured, preventing serious injury
- Allows less experienced players or less skilled players more opportunity to play (yes I'm being selfish here, but this means if I'm sitting a game and we're up 6-0 after 5, I can be put in the game for Bryant and get an at bat). This to me will encourage more players to travel. Anyone who says this means less people will travel is wrong. You don't need to sit anyone if you don't want to - so you can continue playing just as you have every other tournament. It's a choice. And if you think it gives a team an advantage thats wrong, because teams already sit players, so the only change would be that the player sat (usually a less skilled player) will get a chance to play and increase their skills. Oh and it also might make that 6-0 blow-out more competitive.
- More strategy goes into it

Cons
- Might be difficult to keep track of for some people
- Some people like less strategy

yep thats it! well done Slam

[machinegunkelly]

wow. I love the cons.

less strategy without a sub rule?

teams in baseball pinch hit in certain situations and put in defensive subs later in the game. those aren't strategy related moves?

[kim dude]

wow. I love the cons.

less strategy without a sub rule?

teams in baseball pinch hit in certain situations and put in defensive subs later in the game. those aren't strategy related moves?

too bad we're not playing baseball. maybe we should allow unlimited pitcher changes too

[The Slam]

wow. I love the cons.

less strategy without a sub rule?

teams in baseball pinch hit in certain situations and put in defensive subs later in the game. those aren't strategy related moves?

too bad we're not playing baseball. maybe we should allow unlimited pitcher changes too

Can you please list some cons? Other than saying this isn't baseball?

[machinegunkelly]

wow. I love the cons.

less strategy without a sub rule?

teams in baseball pinch hit in certain situations and put in defensive subs later in the game. those aren't strategy related moves?

too bad we're not playing baseball. maybe we should allow unlimited pitcher changes too

Can you please list some cons? Other than saying this isn't baseball?

cant cause there are none...

[TQO]

Hey Slam where's that new GTK you promised us?

[Jared It Up!]

wow. I love the cons.

less strategy without a sub rule?

teams in baseball pinch hit in certain situations and put in defensive subs later in the game. those aren't strategy related moves?

I never said that pinch hits aren't strategy moves.

[The Slam]

Hey Slam where's that new GTK you promised us?

I've been giving empty promises for months.

[JACKHAMMER]

Would there only be a kicking lineup of 10? I like the idea but think there should be some additional kickers. Like 2 extra kickers that are only used on offense only. Cap the lineup at 12 or something. This would make some exciting games with a team's top of the order coming through more often. I like the idea but things need to be clear plus the head ref would need both lineups and available subs before the first pitch was thrown.

[Justin]

I never understood why you could not sub players. I am sure some of the better teams that might be resting some players for single elimination would like to be able to swap them in if the pool play team is better than expected. We have to realize this is not the social game it started out as and needs to adapt accordingly. Allowing subs is a great idea.

[Jared It Up!]

Would there only be a kicking lineup of 10? I like the idea but think there should be some additional kickers. Like 2 extra kickers that are only used on offense only. Cap the lineup at 12 or something. This would make some exciting games with a team's top of the order coming through more often. I like the idea but things need to be clear plus the head ref would need both lineups and available subs before the first pitch was thrown.

I was thinking about this. Maybe every player from the field and two designated kickers.

The issue is definitely implementation. The reffing level is across the board. We gotta make it simple.

[JellyDogg]

The biggest con is that a substitution rule actually encourages teams to not-play people. Every player who would be a fringe starter is now a no-brainer "sub." Those players who would likely play an entire game or two (at least in pool play) are now in the "we'll call you if we need you" bin. Teams that play a 5th girl (like mine) would now have no reason to do so.

[machinegunkelly]

The biggest con is that a substitution rule actually encourages teams to not-play people. Every player who would be a fringe starter is now a no-brainer "sub." Those players who would likely play an entire game or two (at least in pool play) are now in the "we'll call you if we need you" bin. Teams that play a 5th girl (like mine) would now have no reason to do so.

I really don't think that attitude exist among circuit teams, at least not with the teams i know....

[The Slam]

The biggest con is that a substitution rule actually encourages teams to not-play people. Every player who would be a fringe starter is now a no-brainer "sub." Those players who would likely play an entire game or two (at least in pool play) are now in the "we'll call you if we need you" bin. Teams that play a 5th girl (like mine) would now have no reason to do so.

I think the opposite. And it's each teams choice. Why not let the captain make the decision? If you still want to play your 5 girls and 12 guys, who says you can't?

[JACKHAMMER]

The biggest con is that a substitution rule actually encourages teams to not-play people. Every player who would be a fringe starter is now a no-brainer "sub." Those players who would likely play an entire game or two (at least in pool play) are now in the "we'll call you if we need you" bin. Teams that play a 5th girl (like mine) would now have no reason to do so.

It could also encourage teams to be able to start normal non starters with the ability to sub in their "stars" if needed later if a game gets close. I am in favor of the substitute idea because you have to be more strategic especially if you are only allowed 2 subs per game. Pinch hitting in a tied ball game with a chance of a walk off sounds exciting to me.

[kim dude]

I guess I don't understand why you think you need the rule if it is not to protect the forfeit.

[Kickbot]

The biggest con is that a substitution rule actually encourages teams to not-play people. Every player who would be a fringe starter is now a no-brainer "sub." Those players who would likely play an entire game or two (at least in pool play) are now in the "we'll call you if we need you" bin. Teams that play a 5th girl (like mine) would now have no reason to do so.

I guess we all view this through the lens of our own teams.

If the community agrees that it's important to have a 5th girl in the lineup than the rule should be that we all have to start with 5. Why make it some king of weird gamble.

[The Slam]

I guess I don't understand why you think you need the rule if it is not to protect the forfeit.

To get people playing time that would otherwise not get playing time. To encourage captains to think more strategically. To allow some players to rest unless needed.

[machinegunkelly]

I guess I don't understand why you think you need the rule if it is not to protect the forfeit.

Competitive kickball is a sport, sports have substitutions......

[JellyDogg]

I think the opposite. And it's each teams choice. Why not let the captain make the decision? If you still want to play your 5 girls and 12 guys, who says you can't?

Funny, it's the captain's decision now. A sub rule would eliminate any strategic advantage of playing a 5th girl. The current rule is the one that allows for captain's strategy to enter into how many girls you play.

[machinegunkelly]

I think the opposite. And it's each teams choice. Why not let the captain make the decision? If you still want to play your 5 girls and 12 guys, who says you can't?

Funny, it's the captain's decision now. A sub rule would eliminate any strategic advantage of playing a 5th girl. The current rule is the one that allows for captain's strategy to enter into how many girls you play.

you can still play 5 girls if u want.

[JellyDogg]

you can still play 5 girls if u want.

Yes, and we could still play defense hopping around on 1 foot.

[machinegunkelly]

you can still play 5 girls if u want.

Yes, and we could still play defense hopping around on 1 foot.

So u are against this rule because you think the stagey of playing 5 girls to prevent a forfeit is more important than the strategies of what a substitution rule would bring?

[JellyDogg]

So u are against this rule because you think the stagey of playing 5 girls to prevent a forfeit is more important than the strategies of what a substitution rule would bring?

I've already stated that the sub rule encourages teams to not-play people. The 4 girls v. 5 girls is just one example of how it will take people out of games that would otherwise play.

[machinegunkelly]

So u are against this rule because you think the stagey of playing 5 girls to prevent a forfeit is more important than the strategies of what a substitution rule would bring?

I've already stated that the sub rule encourages teams to not-play people. The 4 girls v. 5 girls is just one example of how it will take people out of games that would otherwise play.

i completely disagree w u, lets see what others think....

[machinegunkelly]

So u are against this rule because you think the stagey of playing 5 girls to prevent a forfeit is more important than the strategies of what a substitution rule would bring?

I've already stated that the sub rule encourages teams to not-play people. The 4 girls v. 5 girls is just one example of how it will take people out of games that would otherwise play.

i completely disagree w u. What top team plays 5 girls late in tournament? no one. This rule allows them to. lets see what others think....

[Jared It Up!]

I agree with what JD is saying. If you look at the circuit as something that we want to grow, then adding this rule will only encourage benchings. I think it is too early to make radical changes.

[2_easy]

I agree with what JD is saying. If you look at the circuit as something that we want to grow, then adding this rule will only encourage benchings. I think it is too early to make radical changes.

Not only that, if you want it to grow you need to restrict the number of players on a team, lineup, etc.

[JellyDogg]

i completely disagree w u. What top team plays 5 girls late in tournament? no one. This rule allows them to. lets see what others think....

The current rule allows them to, as well.

[Justin]

I've already stated that the sub rule encourages teams to not-play people. The 4 girls v. 5 girls is just one example of how it will take people out of games that would otherwise play.

If you call kicking 1 maybe 2 times a game playing. That is all that "extra" girl gets to do. Being able to sub would let that girl maybe play a whole game during pool play if the team wanted them to. Players on a real team realize what is best for the team, even if that include sitting.

[Justin]

I agree with what JD is saying. If you look at the circuit as something that we want to grow, then adding this rule will only encourage benchings. I think it is too early to make radical changes.

Are you kidding, teams sit players already. All this would let them do it let those players that are not in the game actually get in the game if the situation called for it. I think it would be great to be able to pinch kick a bunter for a kicker late in the game, or vice versa.

[Kickbot]

I've already stated that the sub rule encourages teams to not-play people. The 4 girls v. 5 girls is just one example of how it will take people out of games that would otherwise play.

If you call kicking 1 maybe 2 times a game playing. That is all that "extra" girl gets to do. Being able to sub would let that girl maybe play a whole game during pool play if the team wanted them to. Players on a real team realize what is best for the team, even if that include sitting.

I think everyone is looking at this in view of their own team. I know on our team everyone is willing to do whatever it takes to win, including sit if call upon. With substitutions someone who is initially asked to sit may get a chance to play if the situation allows it.

It would also afford the opportunity to get inexperienced players involved in a tournament, where we might otherwise be hesitant to include them on the roster.

From the point of view of our team, allowing substitutions would get more people in the game on the whole.

[Catch-22]

If you want to play backups in the field during pool play to rest the starters, people are free to do that now. I don't see what the benefit of this is. Anyone who's a normal defensive starter that isn't still kicking during a game his team may potentially need him to play defense in later is either awful at offense or not in good enough shape. Let's not tie the Circuit down with unnecessary red tape rules.

[JellyDogg]

If you call kicking 1 maybe 2 times a game playing. That is all that "extra" girl gets to do. Being able to sub would let that girl maybe play a whole game during pool play if the team wanted them to. Players on a real team realize what is best for the team, even if that include sitting.

That "extra" girl also plays defense. On my team that is 4 out of 5 innings. If doing that for every game comes out to less total playing time than sitting out all games, except late in a blowout or maybe play 1 whole game in pool play (if she's lucky), then I'd question your math.